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The threads is about philosophy and logic, and NOT about scientific proofs and existence of God.
So, in among almost all faiths, the followers and believers, are guaranteed a spot in heaven.
It’s not the works, remember. It’s just having the belief, and that’s it; a cosmic red carpet welcome is awaiting.
If that’s the case then what’s the point of living a life on earth anymore?
Why the struggle of getting up every morning to go work, and pay taxes, deal with daily stress, and suffer illnesses, and go thru the slow grind of old age, and see the world’s pain and misery and crime and racism, and poverty and hunger and inflation, and disease, and tornadoes and hurricanes and earth quakes and tsunamis n whatnot?
Why not just pray to have your life ended, and be in heaven and escape all of it? Why not put your faith to test?
One response I received was, “yes I am going to heaven but I love my cat or my dog”.
I think the counter is, isn’t heaven a place of blissful eternity? There is absolutely no worry of any sort in heaven regardless of your circumstances and relationships and emotional attachments with anything in this world.
Or, the old saying goes true for such faiths, “Everyone wants to go heaven but no one wants to die.”
Or, the faiths where the believer believes to have a guaranteed spot reserved in heaven, seems to fail this test of logic?
1. Ephesians 2:10 says that the reason God saves us is to do good works. Yes, we're guaranteed Heaven. But in the meantime, we have things to do here.
2. God programmed in everyone a sense of self-preservation.
3. I do pray that Christ would come soon, and I look forward to the day I enter his presence.
The threads is about philosophy and logic, and NOT about scientific proofs and existence of God.
So, in among almost all faiths, the followers and believers, are guaranteed a spot in heaven.
It’s not the works, remember. It’s just having the belief, and that’s it; a cosmic red carpet welcome is awaiting.
If that’s the case then what’s the point of living a life on earth anymore?
Why the struggle of getting up every morning to go work, and pay taxes, deal with daily stress, and suffer illnesses, and go thru the slow grind of old age, and see the world’s pain and misery and crime and racism, and poverty and hunger and inflation, and disease, and tornadoes and hurricanes and earth quakes and tsunamis n whatnot?
Why not just pray to have your life ended, and be in heaven and escape all of it? Why not put your faith to test?
One response I received was, “yes I am going to heaven but I love my cat or my dog”.
I think the counter is, isn’t heaven a place of blissful eternity? There is absolutely no worry of any sort in heaven regardless of your circumstances and relationships and emotional attachments with anything in this world.
Or, the old saying goes true for such faiths, “Everyone wants to go heaven but no one wants to die.”
Or, the faiths where the believer believes to have a guaranteed spot reserved in heaven, seems to fail this test of logic?
As with so many questions along these lines, I've found that observing nature provides as good an answer as we're going to find anywhere.
Your line "why not put your faith to test" got my attention.
"Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah."
Then when Satan is tempting Jesus in the desert, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”
I understand the distinction where you said "test your faith" not "test God". It just caught my attention. For me, puttingh my faith to test would sort of be putting God to test. "Gee, are you going to keep your promise or not"?
I suspect you did not mean it that way.
Why NOT put God to the test?
We didn't ask to be here. We didn't ask to bear witness to the pain and suffering on this planet. Nor did we ask to endure ourselves the personal pain and suffering nearly all of us endures to some extent.
I do get really tired of this attitude that God has no responsibility whatsoever for the mess he made of his own creation.
Especially if you believe that God is omniscient - which he would *have* to be for God to be perfect. If God didn't know everything, he could very easily make mistakes based on his lack of knowledge. In fact, that lack of knowledge is THE number one reason mistakes are made. All we humans can do is put together as many clues as possible and then take the plunge - commit to a decision and hope it goes well. We don't have omniscience.
As I've said a thousand times - I was never given the opportunity to behave myself in Eden. I might have made a different decision - I may not have been tempted by a ridiculous talking snake. But instead, according to Christian folklore, at least, I must endure all of this garbage because of the singular action of one women who existed thousands of years ago? And then we're supposedt to believe that god is fair, just, and wise.
My life ended years ago and now I'm just waiting to die.
Something else I have to do, some might claim?
I doubt it.
It's relatively easy to get through things when you have a good family, a fun circle of friends, a big support network so that there will always be something good to balance out the bad.
Trust me when I say that SOME people don't have that. Life essentially becomes a neverending series of bad news and more bad news. The good in life simply doesn't exist - no joy, no anticipation, nothing to look forward to, no one there to listen.
People always talk about getting "through" things. But to say that one gets "through" something implies that there is an ending - like going through a tunnel. Sooner or later, you'll see the light at the end of it.
But that's not always the case. I know for a fact based on personal experience that sometimes one enters a tunnel that will literally never end. There is no "getting through" it ... because once it begins, it's really the end.
This is why I don't take as dim of a view on suicide as many do - because no one can truly understand the dark places where some people are forced to reside. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people should end their lives over petty, trivial, banal, and very temporary setbacks. Getting dumped by your paramour, losing your job, dealing with divorce issues - most things are things you get through.
But then there are the things you *don't* get through - things that will forever haunt you. Yes, there are the obvious horrific diseases that some people suffer with ...
This is why I'm a firm believer in "death with dignity" instead of forcing a person to live through every second of their misery and pain - and for what? Because of an interpretation of a Biblical passage meant for the Hebrews 3,000 years ago? Because those who are young and healthy can't stand losing the person who will forever be strapped to a hospital bed with tubes sprouting from nearly every orifice? Is it fair that a person who has everything make the demand of someone who has nothing to stay in this world, miserable and in pain?
We didn't ask to be here. We didn't ask to bear witness to the pain and suffering on this planet. Nor did we ask to endure ourselves the personal pain and suffering nearly all of us endures to some extent.
I do get really tired of this attitude that God has no responsibility whatsoever for the mess he made of his own creation.
Especially if you believe that God is omniscient - which he would *have* to be for God to be perfect. If God didn't know everything, he could very easily make mistakes based on his lack of knowledge. In fact, that lack of knowledge is THE number one reason mistakes are made. All we humans can do is put together as many clues as possible and then take the plunge - commit to a decision and hope it goes well. We don't have omniscience.
I wonder who it was that initially decided what God MUST be and created the Omnis? Personally, as I tried to explain my encounter to my intellect, I assumed NOTHING about what attributes the God I encountered MUST have. I used only those I had experienced and unambiguously knew were true. You said God MUST be omniscient, Shirina, why is that, exactly? On what basis would this be mandatory?
Quote:
As I've said a thousand times - I was never given the opportunity to behave myself in Eden. I might have made a different decision - I may not have been tempted by a ridiculous talking snake. But instead, according to Christian folklore, at least, I must endure all of this garbage because of the singular action of one woman who existed thousands of years ago? And then we're supposed to believe that god is fair, just, and wise.
I have hope that the absurdity of these beliefs about God and His motives is becoming increasingly evident to more and more people, Shirina. They are entirely the result of our flawed primitive human imagination and ignorance. It will take time because our human vanity and hubris insists on deciding what God MUST BE despite having no basis in fact or reason.
I wonder who it was that initially decided what God MUST be and created the Omnis? Personally, as I tried to explain my encounter to my intellect, I assumed NOTHING about what attributes the God I encountered MUST have. I used only those I had experienced and unambiguously knew were true. You said God MUST be omniscient, Shirina, why is that, exactly? On what basis would this be mandatory? I have hope that the absurdity of these beliefs about God and His motives is becoming increasingly evident to more and more people, Shirina. They are entirely the result of our flawed primitive human imagination and ignorance. It will take time because our human vanity and hubris insists on deciding what God MUST BE despite having no basis in fact or reason.
To be fair, you've created your own version of who God is, so why are you criticizing others for believing what God has said about himself?
My life ended years ago and now I'm just waiting to die.
Something else I have to do, some might claim?
I doubt it.
It's relatively easy to get through things when you have a good family, a fun circle of friends, a big support network so that there will always be something good to balance out the bad.
Trust me when I say that SOME people don't have that. Life essentially becomes a neverending series of bad news and more bad news. The good in life simply doesn't exist - no joy, no anticipation, nothing to look forward to, no one there to listen.
People always talk about getting "through" things. But to say that one gets "through" something implies that there is an ending - like going through a tunnel. Sooner or later, you'll see the light at the end of it.
But that's not always the case. I know for a fact based on personal experience that sometimes one enters a tunnel that will literally never end. There is no "getting through" it ... because once it begins, it's really the end.
This is why I don't take as dim of a view on suicide as many do - because no one can truly understand the dark places where some people are forced to reside. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people should end their lives over petty, trivial, banal, and very temporary setbacks. Getting dumped by your paramour, losing your job, dealing with divorce issues - most things are things you get through.
But then there are the things you *don't* get through - things that will forever haunt you. Yes, there are the obvious horrific diseases that some people suffer with ...
This is why I'm a firm believer in "death with dignity" instead of forcing a person to live through every second of their misery and pain - and for what? Because of an interpretation of a Biblical passage meant for the Hebrews 3,000 years ago? Because those who are young and healthy can't stand losing the person who will forever be strapped to a hospital bed with tubes sprouting from nearly every orifice? Is it fair that a person who has everything make the demand of someone who has nothing to stay in this world, miserable and in pain?
It's a complicated question.
It is indeed a complicated question. Adepts from your Indian heritage had developed techniques thousands of years ago that enabled them to overcome physical pain. Admittedly, it took a lot of discipline and practice to achieve, but their reported achievements bordered on the miraculous. I am not nearly as adept as they were but it makes an enormous difference to my life as I endure the many vicissitudes of this aging body.
I do not have an answer to your "Why" question except that this physical existence itself is irrelevant to our actual existence. It is what we are becoming by enduring it that is the relevant outcome. Recognizing that we are essentially a Spirit being is a difficult realization to come to because of our conditioning to this physical body and existence.
To be fair, you've created your own version of who God is, so why are you criticizing others for believing what God has said about himself?
By testing what is claimed to be from God against the known character of God as demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the Cross, I only use what is compatible with or consistent with what could actually be from God. You accept everything men have said God said. I do not!
By testing what is claimed to be from God against the known character of God as demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the Cross, I only use what is compatible with or consistent with what could actually be from God. You accept everything men have said God said. I do not!
Correction: You "test what is claimed to be from God against" what you BELIEVE to be the character of God.
But what if you're wrong? You've yet to establish that you're correct and everyone else that has ever lived is wrong.
Correction: You "test what is claimed to be from God against" what you BELIEVE to be the character of God.
But what if you're wrong? You've yet to establish that you're correct and everyone else that has ever lived is wrong.
I use Jesus Christ because He matches the God I encountered and we are told that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is why I am a Christian and not an atheist.
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We are here to overcome and endure to the end.
