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Easy to say, though, when you are mentally healthy.
...or (and) physically.
I have had a very few people tell me that suffering is a great gift. The only problem was that they hadn't truly suffered...yet. But I remembered two of the conversations, and quite a long ways down the road I still knew them when they had debilitating diseases -- terminal cancer for one, Parkinsons for another. Ultimately they didn't find suffering to be the gift they thought it would be.
As a person of deep faith, I've given it to God to end my life when He sees fit... and when the time comes, I prefer to be in my bed... and not out on the street run over by a drunk driver. This happened to someone I know a few years ago. Very shocking and sad.
So we must deal with all the trials and tribulations of life... the good, the bad and the ugly, which there are many. But we weren't created just to live here on this earth. I believe there is another world that awaits, which is very similar to this one, and that hell is a place, but it's not eternal... all will eventually be redeemed.
I have had a very few people tell me that suffering is a great gift. The only problem was that they hadn't truly suffered...yet. But I remembered two of the conversations, and quite a long ways down the road I still knew them when they had debilitating diseases -- terminal cancer for one, Parkinsons for another. Ultimately they didn't find suffering to be the gift they thought it would be.
Once many years ago my sister asked us what our axiom was...
Hers she explained is "life is beautiful."
I always had some trouble with that one, because there are so many people living a life they can rightfully recognize is anything but beautiful. I need not get into all the examples of poor people who live a life of such incredible pain, suffering and difficulty.
On the other hand, my sister is one of these people who can seemingly walk on hot coals and keep a smile on her face. Suddenly a care-giver after her husband had a serious stroke (at our home Thanksgiving day many years ago). As of that day her husband could no longer care for himself. She just recently sat with my wife and I and my other sister here at our home and explained over dinner what it has been like to lose her husband on that day, but not really. How the stress and strain of dealing with so many issues, every moment of the day for many years now is nothing anyone else can really understand or appreciate unless they have been through the same.
"Our greatest blessing are the things that don't happen to us."
Once many years ago my sister asked us what our axiom was...
Hers she explained is "life is beautiful."
I always had some trouble with that one, because there are so many people living a life they can rightfully recognize is anything but beautiful. I need not get into all the examples of poor people who live a life of such incredible pain, suffering and difficulty.
On the other hand, my sister is one of these people who can seemingly walk on hot coals and keep a smile on her face. Suddenly a care-giver after her husband had a serious stroke (at our home Thanksgiving day many years ago). As of that day her husband could no longer care for himself. She just recently sat with my wife and I and my other sister here at our home and explained over dinner what it has been like to lose her husband on that day, but not really. How the stress and strain of dealing with so many issues, every moment of the day for many years now is nothing anyone else can really understand or appreciate unless they have been through the same.
"Our greatest blessing are the things that don't happen to us."
I think that's true...until true suffering begins. Suffering is not a gift I want.
Suffering can be redemptive.
I suffered a lot when my mother went to heaven, but now I know I will cherish every moment with my own kids. Perhaps it was her time to be with Jesus and now I am here more redeemed.
I feel like I wasted a lot of time when she was alive and then made sure I was always busy....expectant waiting, helping my younger brother, working, doing community service, exercising, buying food/clothes on deals, and eating healthy. I had no down time in high school. Probably should have fit more time in there for schoolwork! But...I have a reputation for being nice and productive and serving others now.
Quote:
If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant; if we did not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.
-Anne Bradstreet
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Like I always say, "live life like you mean it." I'm an atheist, so I tend to avoid wasting any part of my life inside a church. Or praying as if there is a god or as if prayers would somehow be attended by a god if there were one. When I think about how much time and effort is "wasted" by people directing their attention toward religious rituals and reverence related to countless different notions about god, rather than making better use of their time, I am somewhat sympathetic.
But I also say "whatever works," so if spending time that way is the better way to spend time for others, then I suppose I can understand that too. "People are different" as my daughter is famous around here for noting at a very young age...
I don't need your sympathy. Expectant waiting is calming, makes me think, and makes me experience nature. It helps my anxiety issues.
I think Jesus makes my life better. Jesus calls on us to love and serve. That is NEVER a waste. Not to brag, but I did over 400 hours of community service while in high school...through Jesus. How is that a waste? I still do community service and donations to this day....although a little less with a baby.
Once many years ago my sister asked us what our axiom was...
Hers she explained is "life is beautiful."
I always had some trouble with that one, because there are so many people living a life they can rightfully recognize is anything but beautiful. I need not get into all the examples of poor people who live a life of such incredible pain, suffering and difficulty.
On the other hand, my sister is one of these people who can seemingly walk on hot coals and keep a smile on her face. Suddenly a care-giver after her husband had a serious stroke (at our home Thanksgiving day many years ago). As of that day her husband could no longer care for himself. She just recently sat with my wife and I and my other sister here at our home and explained over dinner what it has been like to lose her husband on that day, but not really. How the stress and strain of dealing with so many issues, every moment of the day for many years now is nothing anyone else can really understand or appreciate unless they have been through the same.
"Our greatest blessing are the things that don't happen to us."
It is true. My sister is the same type of person. Ten years ago, her husband was diagnosed at 65 with Primary Progressive MS, a type that hits late in life and for which there is no treatment. He needed a cane, then two canes, then a walker, then a power chair, and now he is confined to a hospital bed. She is 71 herself and a full-time caregiver, and she is cracking now under the strain of it. Her life sucks. I am in the beginning stages of a similar journey, only mine is not likely to last as long. I have watched my sister for many years and wondered how she did it. She was so cheerful and upbeat, until she wasn't.
Her husband, whose own suffering is obviously great, as he has lost the ability to use all of his limbs except for one hand with which he can still text and type, appreciates what she does, and she has whatever help social services provides coming to assist now, but she is unable to get out to do much more than grocery shop. Taking the dog for walks is the highlight of her day.
You can make lemonade out of lemons, sure. But is that the best use of your life force?
Considering all the sorrow in my life via loved ones I have buried / cremated / whatever, sure I'm tougher and have learned some things from it ... things I could have learned and toughness I could have obtained by other, gentler means. And ironically I'm the seeking sort of personality that would have done so, too.
But I'm also diminished by it. I can't un-experience or un-know the trauma of it. It changes for example my cost / benefit calculation in human relationships. If my present (thankfully still-living) wife were to pass, I can guarantee you I'd not consider yet another rodeo at this point in my life, or any point really. I do not wax philosophical about my son's death at age 30, it is simply one of several 800 pound gorillas in my mental room. I miss him. I wish I could have helped him somehow. But ... it happened anyway. No one asked me (or him). It just WAS.
The way I have expressed it before, long ago here is like this, as a continuum:
Abject misery <===== neutral ======> Unbridled joy
Everyone's existence is somewhere on this continuum. People rationalize suffering as allowing you to appreciate pleasing circumstances by way of contrast. But there'd still be plenty of contrast with an arrangement like this:
Neutral <=========> Unbridled joy
I would still be able to tell the difference between the bloom of first love or an orgasm or the pleasure of learning something new or a good friendship from "meh" or from each other. Suffering isn't remotely required and in fact poisons the well with fears and aversions. Yet we have the situation that we have, either because some deity in its alleged infinite wisdom structured it that way, or, as I believe, simply because sh_t happens and existence was not structured or made for my personal enjoyment to begin with. Life is just a series of things happening, some of which are pleasurable, some of which are painful.
I believe that one of religion's great errors is to tell people that god wants them to have nice things, making them entitled to them. "You have won the grand prize! Welcome to the Victorious Christian Life!" Life does not owe me anything -- neither some white picket fence fantasy, nor closure, nor misery and suffering for that matter. Life just IS.
I suffered a lot when my mother went to heaven, but now I know I will cherish every moment with my own kids. Perhaps it was her time to be with Jesus and now I am here more redeemed.
I feel like I wasted a lot of time when she was alive and then made sure I was always busy....expectant waiting, helping my younger brother, working, doing community service, exercising, buying food/clothes on deals, and eating healthy. I had no down time in high school. Probably should have fit more time in there for schoolwork! But...I have a reputation for being nice and productive and serving others now.
-Anne Bradstreet
I don't need your sympathy. Expectant waiting is calming, makes me think, and makes me experience nature. It helps my anxiety issues.
I think Jesus makes my life better. Jesus calls on us to love and serve. That is NEVER a waste. Not to brag, but I did over 400 hours of community service while in high school...through Jesus. How is that a waste? I still do community service and donations to this day....although a little less with a baby.
I didn't mean to suggest anyone needs my sympathy. I just can't help but feel sympathy for the reasons I explained before. That's a personal thing with me having nothing to do with the needs, opinions or feelings of others. I'm quite aware the person who spends all their time praying in church feels quite differently about that time spent than I do. We all know this...
That any way of spending time helps to calm you or make you think, experience nature, is a good thing far as I'm concerned. Again as I always say, "whatever works." I'm not one to argue against the merits of believing whatever makes us feel good or better in any way. My focus tends to be about other aspects of this dynamic having nothing to do with what suits us and what doesn't.
What I think and believe along these lines helps me too I should probably add, but I'm okay with the truth of these matters as I have come to conclude them. Faith, religion, God is simply not part of that equation for me, and I don't feel any the worse for it. Not at all. The opposite actually.
Sometimes I wish I had the comfort of what religion helps some people to believe. Really I do, but for reasons I've explained many times, I just can't. That said, however, I'm glad still today to feel my life has been better than I deserve and in many ways better than I generally expected possible for me personally.
It is true. My sister is the same type of person. Ten years ago, her husband was diagnosed at 65 with Primary Progressive MS, a type that hits late in life and for which there is no treatment. He needed a cane, then two canes, then a walker, then a power chair, and now he is confined to a hospital bed. She is 71 herself and a full-time caregiver, and she is cracking now under the strain of it. Her life sucks. I am in the beginning stages of a similar journey, only mine is not likely to last as long. I have watched my sister for many years and wondered how she did it. She was so cheerful and upbeat, until she wasn't.
Her husband, whose own suffering is obviously great, as he has lost the ability to use all of his limbs except for one hand with which he can still text and type, appreciates what she does, and she has whatever help social services provides coming to assist now, but she is unable to get out to do much more than grocery shop. Taking the dog for walks is the highlight of her day.
You can make lemonade out of lemons, sure. But is that the best use of your life force?
Considering all the sorrow in my life via loved ones I have buried / cremated / whatever, sure I'm tougher and have learned some things from it ... things I could have learned and toughness I could have obtained by other, gentler means. And ironically I'm the seeking sort of personality that would have done so, too.
But I'm also diminished by it. I can't un-experience or un-know the trauma of it. It changes for example my cost / benefit calculation in human relationships. If my present (thankfully still-living) wife were to pass, I can guarantee you I'd not consider yet another rodeo at this point in my life, or any point really. I do not wax philosophical about my son's death at age 30, it is simply one of several 800 pound gorillas in my mental room. I miss him. I wish I could have helped him somehow. But ... it happened anyway. No one asked me (or him). It just WAS.
The way I have expressed it before, long ago here is like this, as a continuum:
Abject misery <===== neutral ======> Unbridled joy
Everyone's existence is somewhere on this continuum. People rationalize suffering as allowing you to appreciate pleasing circumstances by way of contrast. But there'd still be plenty of contrast with an arrangement like this:
Neutral <=========> Unbridled joy
I would still be able to tell the difference between the bloom of first love or an orgasm or the pleasure of learning something new or a good friendship from "meh" or from each other. Suffering isn't remotely required and in fact poisons the well with fears and aversions. Yet we have the situation that we have, either because some deity in its alleged infinite wisdom structured it that way, or, as I believe, simply because sh_t happens and existence was not structured or made for my personal enjoyment to begin with. Life is just a series of things happening, some of which are pleasurable, some of which are painful.
I believe that one of religion's great errors is to tell people that god wants them to have nice things, making them entitled to them. "You have won the grand prize! Welcome to the Victorious Christian Life!" Life does not owe me anything -- neither some white picket fence fantasy, nor closure, nor misery and suffering for that matter. Life just IS.
I'm always always sympathetic about other people's suffering, and I'm sorry to read what you have had to go through. I also tend to see things the way you do. One need only look at our opioid problem, the number of suicides and all other "faces" of misery, and it is very easy for me to see that there is a whole lot of suffering going on out there no matter what anyone believes about anything. The pain of losing someone is obvious as someone at a funeral service will talk about their lost loved one through a flow of tears. No matter they are "in a better place."
All that said, all I ask is that the orgasms don't stop...
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But...I have a reputation for being nice and productive and serving others now.
Expectant waiting is calming, makes me think, and makes me experience nature. It helps my anxiety issues. 
