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It is looking more and more likely that we humans have been genetically modified from primitive apes(bonobo) and some other animal (read the website or ebook to find out what this other animal is). This qualified geneticist explains how hybrids between species ARE possible but not very often and points to examples on this website..
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Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41
Artificial selection that has created modern cattle and bananas and cat breeds and tomato varieties and countless other examples of domestication constitutes 'genetic tinkering' by humans. Humans are not deities. We're just much more technologically advanced than bananas and cats and have developed the ability to manipulate genes.
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Originally Posted by rstevens62
That is not even close to being the same thing as 'aliens creating an entirely new civilization/form of life'. The things you mentioned, are just genetic tinkering on something that was already created, they just altered/modified it somewhat...its not like they created a completely new kind of tree, fruit, animal, etc, that is radically different from others...
All right, try to follow along.
The OP did not postulate aliens creating an entirely new civilization/form of life. Rather, the OP specifically used the term 'genetic tinkering'. Do you know what it means to tinker? It means minor modifications to a pre-existing thing. Did you even read the OP? The assertion was very clearly (see above) the idea that humans are genetically modified primitive apes. Not created life, but life modified from one of the closest relatives of Homo sapiens.
If the mods think this kind of topic is too controversial and should be moved, please do.
It is looking more and more likely that we humans have been genetically modified from primitive apes(bonobo) and some other animal (read the website or ebook to find out what this other animal is). This qualified geneticist explains how hybrids between species ARE possible but not very often and points to examples on this website..
He points out the fact that apes have brown eyes, body hair, thicker bones, no voicebox capable of human-type language, and brown skin, but caucasians have blue eyes, thinner bones, voicebox and pink skin. These things (as well as others) cannot all be evolutionary.
If God is an alien, where does that leave our beliefs and if they technically 'made' us in a testube, is there another 'higher' God who created them?
I suspect that many of us do not want to confront these types of questions, remain with their faith and will be content to let the topic lie unanswered - even if the evidence is starting to point to us being genetically engineered.
I'm getting to this thread a little late. Now that I'm divorcing myself from some other threads no longer of interest to me...
Accordingly, I apologize for not reading all the comments here so far that might address my first reaction which is as follows:
First, I really don't understand this conclusion that "These things (as well as others) cannot be evolutionary." Consider what has evolved since the first microbes to now and just how is this conclusion justified? It is not.
Secondly, if "God is an alien," then the aliens mucked some things up badly. Who created them? Same answer as who created God of course.
All that said, sure seems more plausible than other explanations for life on earth that life made it's way here from somewhere in space. Much like so much other "stuff" made it to this planet from space. Doesn't really answer how life began in the universe, but once we learn how life can come from non-life, we'll have better hypothesis about how it began elsewhere. Looking forward to that day though I don't think I'll live to see it...
First, I really don't understand this conclusion that "These things (as well as others) cannot be evolutionary." Consider what has evolved since the first microbes to now and just how is this conclusion justified? It is not.
Secondly, if "God is an alien," then the aliens mucked some things up badly. Who created them? Same answer as who created God of course.
Please excuse the vocabulary as I do not know the correct terms. (I know it offends some people to use the wrong terms)
I dont understand your comment about mucked up things. It seems to me as if humans have mucked up things - regardless of whether there is a God or whether we believe that or not. Why should it all be blamed on God or aliens ? It is like you want to blame someone else for what we should be responsible for. It also does not matter at this point, where the original alien/God came from. It is just splitting hairs needlessly.
No-one has shown that microbes evolve into humans or anything bigger than microbes. Some people point to the suggestion we all started in a primordeal soup and evolved from there but who really knows? No-one.
There is a gap in the evolutionary line between primate-types and human-types which is where the "missing link' idea has come from.
We have yet to find the missing link I believe. So, it would make sense that some other being more advanced came to Earth and 'helped' the evolution of the human races. Otherwise, where is that missing link which bridges the gap between ape-like and more refined (delicate) human-like creatures? Some people say we humans are not really designed for Earth environment (due to not having the ape-like body and muscles) and would be better off in an environment with less gravity.
No-one has shown that microbes evolve into humans or anything bigger than microbes. Some people point to the suggestion we all started in a primordeal soup and evolved from there but who really knows? No-one.
Your knowledge of the science of evolution appears to be sadly lacking. Microbe evolve into more complex microbes that re more likely to survive. Those evolve into even more complex life forms. In the case of earth based life forms, there have been over 4 billion years for life forms to evolve into those that exist today.
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There is a gap in the evolutionary line between primate-types and human-types which is where the "missing link' idea has come from.
It's true that some levels of evolution have not been documented with bones or fossils, but that isn't really surprising. In terms of the population of any species, only a very tiny fraction survive as bones or fossils. However, with the advent of DNA technology, there is absolutely no doubt that humans and the great apes evolved from a common ancestor between 4 and 5 million years ago. Human DNA is between 97 and 99 percent the same as chimps and bonobos.
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We have yet to find the missing link I believe. So, it would make sense that some other being more advanced came to Earth and 'helped' the evolution of the human races. Otherwise, where is that missing link which bridges the gap between ape-like and more refined (delicate) human-like creatures? Some people say we humans are not really designed for Earth environment (due to not having the ape-like body and muscles) and would be better off in an environment with less gravity.
It may make sense to you, but I don't think it does to any scientist that has studied these things.
So, it would make sense that some other being more advanced came to Earth and 'helped' the evolution of the human races.
That makes no sense, as that more advanced race would need an even more complex, advanced race to create it, and that race would need an even more complex, advanced race; and this would continue back in time with a constantly more advanced race required.
I dont understand your comment about mucked up things. It seems to me as if humans have mucked up things - regardless of whether there is a God or whether we believe that or not. Why should it all be blamed on God or aliens ? It is like you want to blame someone else for what we should be responsible for. It also does not matter at this point, where the original alien/God came from. It is just splitting hairs needlessly.
I don't know what your religous affiliation is or even if you have one. But let me just say that the guilt of original sin is one of the most cruel and blinding aspect of Christian doctrine.
There's this horrific of self-loathing as a collective species that I see running through the fabric of Western culture that I find absolutely horrifying. Doom and gloom has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Take climate change, for example. It's much easier to place it all in the hands of god - and if we plunge into a Mad Max planet with wars being fought over a single spring or creek with some fresh water in it, well, then we deserve it.
Everything is OUR fault.
No. We did not create who we are. Why are human beings so greedy? Why does every favor done for another come with the expectation of resiprocity. Why can we not work together for the betterment of the human condition - and instead we work individually and competitively for the betterment of a tiny fraction while the rest sink inexorably toward grinding poverty and starvation? We did not give ourselves those traits, right? Could even education ween us away from measuring "success" as merely how much money you have and how shiny your toys are?
Look at us biologically - the ridiculous mistakes made. Why does the optic nerve in our eye run right through middle of our vision? And why must there be this complicated set of rods and cones just to turn right-side-up the image we see which is upside-down? Ridiculous!
Or why is it that we eat with the same tube we breathe through? How many millions of children has that killed over the millennia given that children, especially, have this penchant for putting solid things in their mouths? Not a very nice thing to do, Mr. God is Good!
To say nothing of how inefficient our body is at using the things we eat. Most of it is ejected out our backsides in this disgusting brown lump of bacteria that has killed more people than warfare. And there's nothing in the Bible or Qu'ran or anywhere that tells humanity, "Okay, you need to build a sewage system for your cities - this is how you do it." Nope, instead the Bible concerns itself with things like how many sheckles a rapist pays the victim's father - or finding a loophole to get Hebrew slaves to stay a slave forever. You know, important and moral things every civilization needs to know.
Why should we blame ourselves for those things? You can't really blame a human for how we behave any more than you can blame a fish for swimming and a bird for flying. And no, this isn't some ridiculous argument for abolishing crime or some nonsense like that. But the fact that we even need laws is a testament to the failure of humanity. We did not give ourselves the proclivities that we have.
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Originally Posted by ocpaul20
No-one has shown that microbes evolve into humans or anything bigger than microbes. Some people point to the suggestion we all started in a primordeal soup and evolved from there but who really knows? No-one.
At least evolution has been proven to occur and thus is a far more likely an explanation than ... magic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20
There is a gap in the evolutionary line between primate-types and human-types which is where the "missing link' idea has come from.
The so-called "missing link" hasn't been missing for at least a decade. I think said evolutionary line was discovered in the 2000s if I'm not mistaken.
So, it would make sense that some other being more advanced came to Earth and 'helped' the evolution of the human races. Otherwise, where is that missing link which bridges the gap between ape-like and more refined (delicate) human-like creatures? Some people say we humans are not really designed for Earth environment (due to not having the ape-like body and muscles) and would be better off in an environment with less gravity.
Yes, it is possible that we were helped along by a more advanced species that was interested in how the humaoid evolves.
It is true that we humans are pathetically ill-adapted to live in the wilds anywhere on earth. Even in a relatively warm climate, people die of exposure in 50F-degree weather all the time. We have no natural offenses - no teeth, claws, fangs, poison, webs, or anything of the sort that would help us hunt and defeat prey. We have no natural defenses, either. We have no armor, no camouflage, no way of scaring a predator away. Compared to animals, we can't run fast, we're physically weak, we can't jump, we can't climb, we can't swim, we can't fly. The only things that have allowed us to survive has been our intellect.
Sometimes it does seem as though humans are out of their element here on earth. And I have to admi that aliens are a more believable cause than a magic all-powerful entity that doesn't have to explain where its own origins originated from.
Please excuse the vocabulary as I do not know the correct terms. (I know it offends some people to use the wrong terms)
I dont understand your comment about mucked up things. It seems to me as if humans have mucked up things - regardless of whether there is a God or whether we believe that or not. Why should it all be blamed on God or aliens ? It is like you want to blame someone else for what we should be responsible for. It also does not matter at this point, where the original alien/God came from. It is just splitting hairs needlessly.
No-one has shown that microbes evolve into humans or anything bigger than microbes. Some people point to the suggestion we all started in a primordeal soup and evolved from there but who really knows? No-one.
There is a gap in the evolutionary line between primate-types and human-types which is where the "missing link' idea has come from.
We have yet to find the missing link I believe. So, it would make sense that some other being more advanced came to Earth and 'helped' the evolution of the human races. Otherwise, where is that missing link which bridges the gap between ape-like and more refined (delicate) human-like creatures? Some people say we humans are not really designed for Earth environment (due to not having the ape-like body and muscles) and would be better off in an environment with less gravity.
No worries about vocabulary. I suspect we can understand one another just fine with a bit of effort...
"Mucked up" as in things not turning out the way we humans think they should, and by this I don't mean just what things humans have mucked up. Personally, I know of no good reason to credit or blame a god for anything. You are right about at least one reason people like to do so, but none of the reasons are any good far as I'm concerned. Far as I know.
We all know (or should know) that the earliest life forms were those microbes, and that no other life forms existed then that later developed very slowly but surely into what life forms exist today. The great majority of those life forms have not survived to this day. Now extinct. Sure seems to me that evolution is much better understood generally speaking than you seem to understand, but if not evolution then what? You think a god was/is behind all that life form generation, alteration, growth, development, survival and/or extinction? This makes sense to you? The story of Adam and Eve makes better sense than that, and of course the story of Adam and Eve makes no sense given what we have learned about all this. Should have learned by now.
Yes, not all about the theory of evolution is "missing link" free, but we're getting there. We've certainly come along way along those lines since Darwin first introduced the idea. If not, the possibility of life coming to earth by way of more advanced life forms in outer space also works, but doesn't answer the question about the original source of life. Doesn't really make sense for an advanced life form from space to start with microbes here on earth either, but perhaps you've got an explanation for all that I don't know about? One that makes better sense?
All this isn't just about us humans on earth either, but we humans sure are good at making stuff up about a god either way. I'm inclined to think that's our first mistake, or a big one and not necessary in any case...
Your knowledge of the science of evolution appears to be sadly lacking. Microbe evolve into more complex microbes that re more likely to survive. Those evolve into even more complex life forms. In the case of earth based life forms, there have been over 4 billion years for life forms to evolve into those that exist today.
It's true that some levels of evolution have not been documented with bones or fossils, but that isn't really surprising. In terms of the population of any species, only a very tiny fraction survive as bones or fossils. However, with the advent of DNA technology, there is absolutely no doubt that humans and the great apes evolved from a common ancestor between 4 and 5 million years ago. Human DNA is between 97 and 99 percent the same as chimps and bonobos.
It may make sense to you, but I don't think it does to any scientist that has studied these things.
Yes. Thanks. It is interesting but not surprising how little people understand about evolution. Even among those of us who think we know as much about evolution as we should. By comparison with those who still believe in creationism instead..., well that's what is much harder to understand!
"Three main mechanisms cause allele frequency change: natural selection, genetic drift, and gene flow. Macroevolution, on the other hand, refers to change at or above the level of the species. Advances in technology have given us tools that have dramatically advanced our understanding of how evolution occurs.
Why should we blame ourselves for those things? You can't really blame a human for how we behave any more than you can blame a fish for swimming and a bird for flying. And no, this isn't some ridiculous argument for abolishing crime or some nonsense like that. But the fact that we even need laws is a testament to the failure of humanity. We did not give ourselves the proclivities that we have.
Though I tend to agree with most you explain, I'm not sure about all of it...
Surely we can recognize the difference between how some of us humans are different and act differently as compared to most if not other life forms on earth. Fish and birds all tend to do the same things based on their genetic coding. We humans are a different matter altogether. We've got people who are inclined to do very bad things while at the same time we've got people who are inclined toward doing only good things.
Very different from fish and birds, turtles, microbes, weeds, plants, trees and all the other life forms we share this planet with. No need for more evidence or testament when it comes to human failings that are altogether obvious. Some of us are simply more flawed than others, and for those who are most flawed, we need those laws that help protect the better people from the bad people.
The profound differences are also why fish and birds don't also have laws...
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