Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You think Christians don't lie through their teeth at times??????
They lie all the time around here when they tell us there is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar or that Jesus was prophesied all throughout the Old Testament. How about those?
Perhaps you want a more politically correct way of stating it:
Christians tell untruths about Jesus all the time. How's that?
1. You made it a blanket statement.
2. There's a difference between telling an untruth that you think is true and intentional lying.
3. All people lie.
Your long-winded rants over the past couple of weeks makes you sound unhinged.
Whether they are right or wrong, I don't think they are telling lies. The word "lie" implies that the person knows it is untrue and means to deceive. Being wrong, having incomplete information, using faulty logic are all things that might make a statement incorrect without it being a lie.
Let me qualify my estimation of Christians' veracity this way:
If a Christian sincerely believes there is more evidence for Jesus than Caesar then (s)he is simply mistaken, hence that is not a lie. When a Christians tells me this I correct them in no uncertain terms that they are wrong. Now they have knowledge that what they are saying is not the truth. If they continue to sincerely insist they are right and I am wrong then they are negligent for not checking it out and finding out they are wrong. Now they are in the realm of half-truths in my HO because they should know there is a possibility they are telling an untruth. If they have investigated the issue and found they are wrong yet still sincerely believe they are right even after having learned the truth then they are delusional, and there are lots of delusional Christians on the Christian sub. All a person has to do to realize this is to read their posts over there. If they do actually research what I or others have corrected them on and they know they are not telling the truth but they continue to insist there is more evidence for Jesus than Caesar just for the sake of saving face or trying to defend their religion then they are being dishonest i.e. lying i.e. lying through their teeth. I believe the majority of Christians I interact with here are in the latter category.
I have corrected dozens of Christians directly or indirectly on their mistaken beliefs about Jesus innumerable times and many of them still go right on insisting they are right and I am wrong. Mink is an excellent example of this phenomenon. She always invents some sort of twist on her defense after I have corrected her. Perfect example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte "Thoreau, it's clear from your tone you have extreme anger issues. You resent me deeply. I'm just trying to be civil and find out why you get so angry at me simply because I point out the truth that historians left no evidence for Jesus' existence that a potential Christian convert could base his conversion on, and the manner in which churchmen lie through their teeth telling newbies there is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar. That IS a lie, I'm sure you know. That's why the post read Atheists and skeptics have the truth, Christians do not. Because an atheist like myself is telling you a truth and you refuse to hear it, preferring instead to hear the lies of churchmen. I don't believe in Jesus, but the gospel words attributed to him are so right:
Men refuse to come to the truth, preferring instead the darkness of ignorance. "
Mink countered with:"If other non-believers have converted to Christianity, I'd think you'd be curious as to why they did... instead of simply dubbing them as unintelligent for doing so. I'd be asking myself, "What do these obviously intelligent converts see that *I* don't see?"
So now we're not talking about "There is more evidence for Jesus than Caesar" anymore--suddenly Mink has twisted the conversation to me missing something about why other Christians are turning to Jesus. In other words, it's my fault for not appreciating Christians' reasons for accepting Jesus. I consider this tactic a disingenuous form of debate, which is basically what we engage in on this forum. Synonyms for disingenuous are "dishonest" "deceitful" "underhanded". Atheists are well-aware of the Christians who engage in these underhanded techniques in a desperate attempt to win their point.
To the subject of this thread, Atheists don't have to resort to such underhanded techniques in pressing home their point because atheist have the truth: there is far more evidence for Caesar than the paltry to nothing evidence for Jesus.
The question will be asked: "Why is Thrillobyte making such an unpleasant fuss over all this? Answer: I'm doing it in an attempt to keep naive lurkers from falling into the trap of becoming a Christian and throwing their life away on a myth like I did for 60 years. Christianity is a deceitful religion as I have demonstrated on innumerable threads like this one.
1. You made it a blanket statement.
2. There's a difference between telling an untruth that you think is true and intentional lying.
3. All people lie.
Your long-winded rants over the past couple of weeks makes you sound unhinged.
Okay. In a sincere attempt to make this thread more pleasant I won't use the terminology, "lie" "lie through their teeth" if it upsets you so much. Maybe you think I"m harming the atheist POV by doing this. I recognize the possibility this is the case and will restrain myself. The point of the thread must stay the same though. Atheists have the truth about Jesus and Christianity's nefarious checkered beginnings. Christians do not.
The question will be asked: "Why is Thrillobyte making such an unpleasant fuss over all this? Answer: I'm doing it in an attempt to keep naive lurkers from falling into the trap of becoming a Christian and throwing their life away on a myth like I did for 60 years. Christianity is a deceitful religion as I have demonstrated on innumerable threads like this one.
Really? Is that why Thrillobyte is doing this? How many lurkers have you saved?
Really? Is that why Thrillobyte is doing this? How many lurkers have you saved?
How would I know? I only know that lurkers read this forum; that they're on the fence about joining Christianity; that they're using what they read here and elsewhere as a guide in making a decision; they say so on occasion. I am trying to keep them from making a terrible mistake that will ruin their lives. The younger they are, the more naive they are generally speaking, the more likely they will fall into Christianity's deceitful clutches and possibly destroy their lives for decades. I don't want that to happen to them.
How would I know? I only know that lurkers read this forum; that they're on the fence about joining Christianity; that they're using what they read here and elsewhere as a guide in making a decision; they say so on occasion. I am trying to keep them from making a terrible mistake that will ruin their lives. The younger they are, the more naive they are generally speaking, the more likely they will fall into Christianity's deceitful clutches and possibly destroy their lives for decades. I don't want that to happen to them.
That is a pretty big burden you have on your shoulder. I hope it gives you some satisfaction.
That is a pretty big burden you have on your shoulder. I hope it gives you some satisfaction.
It does. Probably from your point of view I am like the devil's handmaiden or something leading these pitiful souls hungering for Jesus down the wide road that leads to destruction, right? But from my point of view the road that leads to destruction is Christianity's road. I've read too many stories of lives that were shattered by being Christian. Look at the Clergy Project. Over a thousand former clergy have joined looking for guidance away from Christianity. Read Dan Barker's story as a fanatical minister devoted to Jesus who crashed and burned. His only salvation was becoming an atheist. He runs Freedom From Religion now and ekes out a living doing that but may ex-pastors turned atheist are middle aged with no living skills to get a good job to support their families. How many more pastors who are closet atheists are forced to lie to themselves and stay in the pulpit simply to be able to put food on the table? More than a thousand I can assure you. Read some of their stories if you don't believe me:
They have the truth now. I'd like to think I'm saving some of the ones here contemplating entering the ministry from making the worst mistake of their young lives and ending up the same way as these broken men by revealing what likely lies ahead for them if they do go into the ministry.
It does. Probably from your point of view I am like the devil's handmaiden or something leading these pitiful souls hungering for Jesus down the wide road that leads to destruction, right? But from my point of view the road that leads to destruction is Christianity's road. I've read too many stories of lives that were shattered by being Christian. Look at the Clergy Project. Over a thousand former clergy have joined looking for guidance away from Christianity. Read Dan Barker's story as a fanatical minister devoted to Jesus who crashed and burned. His only salvation was becoming an atheist. He runs Freedom From Religion now and ekes out a living doing that but may ex-pastors turned atheist are middle aged with no living skills to get a good job to support their families. How many more pastors who are closet atheists are forced to lie to themselves and stay in the pulpit simply to be able to put food on the table? More than a thousand I can assure you. Read some of their stories if you don't believe me:
They have the truth now. I'd like to think I'm saving some of the ones here contemplating entering the ministry from making the worst mistake of their young lives and ending up the same way as these broken men by revealing what likely lies ahead for them if they do go into the ministry.
Interesting website, never heard of it. I beg to differ. You are not the devil's handmaiden, I am. I think there are more closet atheists or agnostics than we know.
I'd like to think I'm saving some of the ones here contemplating entering the ministry from making the worst mistake of their young lives and ending up the same way as these broken men by revealing what likely lies ahead for them if they do go into the ministry.
As you may be aware, I attended a bible institute but only took the one year track and did not stay the extra 2 years to become a minister of the gospel. I never personally felt "the call" but I knew plenty of people who did, and I can tell you, in their youthful zeal they are likely to see the denizens of the Clergy Project as failures and cannot see themselves ever getting to that place in life; it is unimaginable to them. I don't recall ever meeting one of those lot who were on the fence and not sure of themselves. They were mostly, as we put it, "on fire".
Also, I can tell you that many pastors love their work. There are also more than a few, judging from my alumni communications, that are not very inspired or are burnt out even if they still believe; on balance they are a surprisingly dour bunch, given how we started out together. I have never personally met anyone who will admit that they wished they had chosen another path though.
The bottom line though is that a devout believer, like anyone else, has to get to the place where the pain of changing is less than the pain of not changing, and more than a few never even feel any pressure there. Their faith centers and comforts them, given an average amount of luck and not thinking too much. A lot of pastors are like that too. If my life had gone a bit differently, I might have fallen into that same pattern and just closed myself off from rational inquiry.
Such folks are not interested in change and one must respect that for the same reasons we unbelievers would like our boundaries respected.
It doesn't hurt to mention the Clergy Project as a public service but sometimes you seem to take the same sort of "repent for the kingdom of god is at hand" approach to it that some of our fundamentalist friends here do. I just don't think people respond to that very well. On the other hand, a fundamentalist is a staunch critter and they are pretty impervious to almost anything you bring to the discussion, so ... who am I to be the tone police?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I only know that lurkers read this forum; that they're on the fence about joining Christianity; that they're using what they read here and elsewhere as a guide in making a decision; they say so on occasion. I am trying to keep them from making a terrible mistake that will ruin their lives. The younger they are, the more naive they are generally speaking, the more likely they will fall into Christianity's deceitful clutches and possibly destroy their lives for decades. I don't want that to happen to them.
I think there are more closet atheists or agnostics than we know.
