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In seeing that parallels can be drawn, which one of those lives can be found to have ended in, arrest, trial and crucifixion?
How many of those lived in both a time and place where crucifixion was a common punishment? If Jesus had been in modrrn America and executed it is more likely from the gas chambe or electric chair than by cruxifixation but if he was in America 150 years earlier than more likely hanging.
And is the means of execution the most important aspect of Christianity?
Well, you ignored my reply so I'll just go ahead and answer as I did previously.
Re Chrestians vs Christians of course for you a Christian it's more reasonable. ANYTHING that helps your position is more reasonable. Tell me:
Is it more reasonable to believe the Jesus of the Bible was a real person than a mythical one when:
1. there isn't a shred of historical proof he or the 12 apostles lived
2. there are MORE characteristic pointing to Jesus being a myth than there is for many other mythical heroes like Hercules and Achilles:
Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
Becomes king
For a time he reigns uneventfully
He prescribes laws
Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
Driven from throne and city
Meets with mysterious death
Often at the top of a hill
His children, if any, do not succeed him
His body is not buried
Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs
Krishna (21), Moses (20), (19), King Arthur (19), Perseus (18), JESUS(18), Watu Gunung of Java (18), Heracles (17), Muhammad (17), Beowulf (15), Buddha (15), Tsar Nicholas II of Russia (14), Zeus (14), Nyikang, a cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile (14), Samson (13), Sunjata, the Lion-King of Ancient Mali (11), Achilles (10), Odysseus (8), Harry Potter (8).[3]
Look at how similar Jesus's life is to Moses and Hercules. And you're going to try to argue that the authors of the gospels were not drawing on the myth of Moses to shaping their description of Jesus???????
In seeing that parallels can be drawn, which one of those lives can be found to have ended in, arrest, trial and crucifixion?
Ahhh! That's where the writers drew upon Old Testament verses about his hands and feet "pierced" and put that together with the most savage form of punishment the Romans could inflict on criminals in Israel. And voila! You get a mythical hero crucified. And then resurrected like Hercules, Osirus, Romulus, Dionysus, Mithra--and whole bunch of mythical god-men. It's just too organized to be a coincidence.
After I found Ancient Egypt located at the top of Africa, I later thought, what is the geographical location of Ancient Rome? I always assumed it was the size of Germany. However, Ancient Rome was larger than the u.s. and much more spread out; depending on the era, with of course [at one point] Egypt is under Rome (See map of Division of the Roman Empire in 406).
Yes, the Empire was very large, with a population that has been calculated to be as large as that of Europe 2000 years later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
One would have to put Mark in the geographic location of a 'library' so as to study (run into) Homer's text, wouldn't they? Example: Codex Alexandrinus, it derives its name from the city of Alexandria in Egypt.
Libraries would have been widespread among the rich, and in educational centers. There is even a private library in Pompeii, or one of it's local towns. Unfortunately the scrolls are charred.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
Now we are back to the evolution of linguistics. People could speak before they could write and only people who were rulers knew how to do both. It stands to reason that people would spread the events by mouth long before someone came along who could hand write the stories and for those stories to (centuries later) show up in print. Then to learn the (King's) opposition to having people learn of the events, they set text on fire, trying to burn everything up, as well as, kill folks over it --- Let me put it this way, no one sought to have Homer's writing extinguished. The question then becomes, what was so important to them, they didn't want other's to know. God?
ps: if you read my diary (oral history) you'd never know if its source existed either.
I too do not think they were destroyed, I think they were not copied as often, especially as the Empire declined. which is why we had fewer copies 1000 years ago as we did 2000 years ago.
"The Homeric papyri are, with the exception of a few ancient quotations, the oldest surviving witnesses to the text of Homer. These papyrus documents are all fragmentary, and range in date from as early as the third century BCE to the seventh century CE. The vast majority of the fragments were discovered in Egypt, and now reside in collections located all over the world."
Thank you for the link, I will try and look later.
"After his missionary journeys with Paul and Peter, Mark returned to Africa at a date not known precisely. He did not go directly to Alexandria, but first went to the Pentapolis. Mark thus went from Rome to his own messianic Jewish people in Libya to be the first apostolically sent missionary to Africa (cf. Oden 2011a:215). His ministry in Cyrene was blessed with signs and wonders (Martyrium Marci 1-2; cf. Oden 2011a:138). This was an indication that African Christianity did not begin in Egypt, but in the unlikely region of Libya (Oden 2011a:139, 140). The Egyptian historian, Aziz Atiya (1968:433) wrote:
Indeed, the apostle of Egypt was a native Jew of Cyrene, St. Mark the evangelist, who came to Alexandria by way of the Pentapolis, and after planting the new faith in Egypt, himself returned to Cyrene to work with his fellow citizens on more than one occasion. (cf. Oden 2011a:212)"
idk, but it seems plausible
Yes, there are several theories as to where Mark was written, usually Rome, Alexandria, or Caesarea Philippi. I do not find the evidence strong for any location, and I do not believe the later stories about Mark. For me, this literary genius is unknown.
In seeing that parallels can be drawn, which one of those lives can be found to have ended in, arrest, trial and crucifixion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Ahhh! That's where the writers drew upon Old Testament verses about his hands and feet "pierced" and put that together with the most savage form of punishment the Romans could inflict on criminals in Israel. And voila! You get a mythical hero crucified. And then resurrected like Hercules, Osirus, Romulus, Dionysus, Mithra--and whole bunch of mythical god-men. It's just too organized to be a coincidence.
The part you're missing is (not the separation of) Church and State. None of those mythical gods went up against that. The Church and State owned everything and everyone, together they laid down the laws, taxes, and ruled the over the people, but the one thing they could not own, is a person's spirit. Find the mythical god that went up against the Law, lost their life, but their spirit was resurrected ...
imo, crucifixion isn't the most savage form of punishment the Romans could inflict on criminals --- look up Death Arenas, where on weekends they would tie a person to elephants and have the elephants pull the person a part. It was just good Saturday night fun with the stands packed with on lookers --- like for us, Saturday at the movies.
The part you're missing is (not the separation of) Church and State. None of those mythical gods went up against that. The Church and State owned everything and everyone, together they laid down the laws, taxes, and ruled the over the people, but the one thing they could not own, is a person's spirit. Find the mythical god that went up against the Law, lost their life, but their spirit was resurrected ...
Yes, those other religions were old religions, and therefore tolerated by the Romans. Even Christianity was tolerated in the beginning, as it was a sect of Judaism. The Romans had problems with new religions, which is why Eusebius in the 4th century AD claimed the Christianity was the original Judaism, and all other forms had lost the way.
Yes, the Empire was very large, with a population that has been calculated to be as large as that of Europe 2000 years later.
Libraries would have been widespread among the rich, and in educational centers. There is even a private library in Pompeii, or one of it's local towns. Unfortunately the scrolls are charred.
I too do not think they were destroyed, I think they were not copied as often, especially as the Empire declined. which is why we had fewer copies 1000 years ago as we did 2000 years ago.
Interesting because I keep finding reports of destruction on the parts of the Codex(s)
"Eleven years after the New Testament was burned, one year after Tyndale was burned, that crown was set on his work ..."
" ... Codex Alexandrinus became part of the Royal Library. It survived the devastating fire of 1733, when the librarian Richard Bentley (d. 1742) rescued it himself from the flames."
(there may be more, as those are the only two i have come across, so far)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Thank you for the link, I will try and look later.
Yes, there are several theories as to where Mark was written, usually Rome, Alexandria, or Caesarea Philippi. I do not find the evidence strong for any location, and I do not believe the later stories about Mark. For me, this literary genius is unknown.
I've only come across Thomas Oden's research puts Mark in Alexandria, where the library there also would have fragments of Homer. But of course Mark would be unknown for any other literary works, as he was a preacher, long before the put the words down on paper. (papyri)
Then of course the book of Mark is spread out over three codex. I found the part of the book that is in Codex Bobbiensis:
"Bobbiensis is dated by most critics to about the year A.D. 400, though some have dated it a century later. By its similarities to the biblical quotations found in the writings of Cyprian of Carthage, critics have concluded that the manuscript represents a form of the text which prevailed in the African province during his lifetime, in the third century. Unfortunately, the manuscript is only partly preserved. It contains the latter half of Mark's Gospel (from chapter 8 to the end) and the first half of Matthew (up to chapter 15)."
Discussion such as these though remind me of the Blind Men and the Elephant parable, we may have parts, but not the whole ...
The part you're missing is (not the separation of) Church and State. None of those mythical gods went up against that. The Church and State owned everything and everyone, together they laid down the laws, taxes, and ruled the over the people, but the one thing they could not own, is a person's spirit. Find the mythical god that went up against the Law, lost their life, but their spirit was resurrected ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Yes, those other religions were old religions, and therefore tolerated by the Romans. Even Christianity was tolerated in the beginning, as it was a sect of Judaism. The Romans had problems with new religions, which is why Eusebius in the 4th century AD claimed the Christianity was the original Judaism, and all other forms had lost the way.
There was no such monkey (see Canon law) as the separation of Church and State. Church and State were a joint power ... Constantine was the first to establish freedom of religion, under his rule. I'm sure that was short lived though ...
Thank you for the link, I will try and look later.
Yes, there are several theories as to where Mark was written, usually Rome, Alexandria, or Caesarea Philippi. I do not find the evidence strong for any location, and I do not believe the later stories about Mark. For me, this literary genius is unknown.
Indeed. The person who effectively started the most successful religion in the world was an anonymous Greek scribe. Only Muhammad can claim that title, being known. Says a lot for joining Islam, doesn't it?
There was no such monkey (see Canon law) as the separation of Church and State. Church and State were a joint power ... Constantine was the first to establish freedom of religion, under his rule. I'm sure that was short lived though ...
It's a definitive statement. Once Constantine was dead the church hierarchy became the law. They told the kings what to do.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 09-29-2022 at 08:49 AM..
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It was just good Saturday night fun with the stands packed with on lookers --- like for us, Saturday at the movies.
