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I've known you to be a pretty reasonable person, Mystic. I mean as I understand, you go for more mystical interpretations of the Bible and don't go with the strict fundamentalism that we see so much of here.
Nevertheless, it cannot escaped your notice that Mark and the Homeric poems, particular the Odyssey have similarities that are so startling on first glance that to do a good study of them would usually convince even the most hardened Christian to think, "Hmmmm...." While there are hundreds of parallels between Odysseus and Jesus, can you have actually missed these:
* Odysseus was a carpenter; Jesus was a carpenter
* Odysseus' crew were inept, foolish, dumb, dense, cowardly nitwits; Jesus' apostles were inept, foolish, dumb, dense, cowardly nitwits
* Odysseus returned from Hades alive; Jesus returned from Hades alive
* Odysseus returns in disguise to surprise suitors who have turned his house into a den of sin; Mk. 12:1-12: “for you do not know when the master of the house will come”
* Odysseus falls asleep at the helm of the boat during a violent while his crew are terrified of dying; Jesus falls asleep at the helm of the boat during a violent storm while his disciples are terrified of dying
* Odysseus is the suffering hero; Jesus is the suffering servant
* Odysseus accused Eurylochus, his top crewman of being possessed of an evil spirit; Jesus accused Peter, his top apostle of being possessed of Satan
* Eurylochus betrayed Odysseus. Peter betrayed Jesus
* Melanthius, a servant fetches arms for the suitors to fight Odysseus; Judas brings armed guards to arrest Jesus
* None of the suitors knew Odysseus so Melanthius had to identify him. None of the guards who came to arrest Jesus knew him so Judas had to identify him
The similarities go on and on.
Mystic, do you stubbornly insist this is all coincidental, especially when Mark, expertly trained in Koine Greek, would have read Homer assiduously like all Greek scholars would have?
I have told you before that I not only see the parallels in many of the spiritual fossil records. I consider them probative of God's Divine influence and inspiration. You see plagiarism, I see confirmation of the avatar spiritual template. You could do the same thing with Mithras, Osiris, etc. Of course, each of the earlier narratives is less sophisticated and uses more primitive imagery and symbolism. Mithras slaying the Bull as symbolic of Jesus "slaying" or overcoming His animal nature, for example.
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I have told you before that I not only see the parallels in many of the spiritual fossil records. I consider them probative of God's Divine influence and inspiration. You see plagiarism, I see confirmation of the avatar spiritual template. You could do the same thing with Mithras, Osiris, etc. Of course, each of the earlier narratives is less sophisticated and uses more primitive imagery and symbolism. Mithras slaying the Bull as symbolic of Jesus "slaying" or overcoming His animal nature, for example.
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And you don't look at any of this from the angle that Mark might have been borrowing details like these from the Iliad and the Odyssey and stories from the Old Testament upon which to shape the story of Jesus' life? Don't forget the Iliad and the Odyssey came 800 years before Jesus and was must-read literature for Greek scholars like Mark who were learning to write. And even if you were to admit Mark was flat-out plagiarizing Homer to write Jesus' story you'd consider that perfectly fine? You'd still believe Jesus' life played out in reality just like a fictional character 800 years earlier?
And you don't look at any of this from the angle that Mark might have been borrowing details like these from the Iliad and the Odyssey and stories from the Old Testament upon which to shape the story of Jesus' life? Don't forget the Iliad and the Odyssey came 800 years before Jesus and was must-read literature for Greek scholars like Mark who were learning to write. And even if you were to admit Mark was flat-out plagiarizing Homer to write Jesus' story you'd consider that perfectly fine? You'd still believe Jesus' life played out in reality just like a fictional character 800 years earlier?
You are not tracking me, Thrill. ALL stories whatever their actual intent or purpose can receive inspiration because our consciousness is part of God's consciousness. Our knowledge or beliefs about God also can only come from our consciousness. The prevalence of the Avatar template in speculations about God suggests that the Avatar meme is the way God sees us eventually learning about our spiritual challenges in overcoming our animal natures and coming to know God. I agree with that view and IMO the Jesus narrative is the most sophisticated and successful in achieving that to date.
I always marvel at the certainty with which you speak about what was in someone else's mind, especially when it comes to our ancient forebears!!! You have an awesome ego to think you are privy to such knowledge.
Oh, it is really very easy when they write down what is in their mind. And it is also possible to read what someone writes, and see the connection to what other people wrote.
Mark, Paul's letters, Homer, the Old Testament texts, apocryphal texts, Tacitus, Suetonius, Eusebius, that is an actual 'spiritual fossil record' that allows us to see how Christianity evolved.
It is called doing history, and you have an awesome ability to get on your high horse (even though it died years ago (yet you still insist on beating it's skeletal remains)), and then arrogantly attack the ability to read words.
Oh, it is really very easy when they write down what is in their mind. And it is also possible to read what someone writes, and see the connection to what other people wrote.
Entirely true, but it's hard for me to read all that much into Homeric parallels with Mark because if you look hard enough for it, I think you can find them in almost any literature. What fourth-rate novel isn't another rehash of the Hero's Journey? Is that a "connection" and if so how significant or deliberate?
The only reason I give it some credence is that the absence of the printing press and the dearth of literacy in the era in which Jesus is said to have ministered, coupled with the accumulated oeuvre of literature being much smaller, means that there was less to borrow from (or, if you like, be inspired by). It is plausible to see Homer as an influence, but in order to do that, you have to be willing to accept the possibility that Mark was an entirely fictional narrative, or at least one freely adapted to fit the Homeric formula; the kindest thing you can say is that Mark saw in Jesus (historic or not), Homeric parallels that he wanted to emphasize.
Entirely true, but it's hard for me to read all that much into Homeric parallels with Mark because if you look hard enough for it, I think you can find them in almost any literature. What fourth-rate novel isn't another rehash of the Hero's Journey? Is that a "connection" and if so how significant or deliberate?
It is not that there are some parallels, 1) there are too many, and 2) it was accepted practice to rewrite earlier classic texts to create new fiction. The idea that they used Homer is not some crazy theory, it is what we know they did. And anyone who was educated at that time, as Mark must have been, would have not only known Homer, they would have been educated using Homer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
The only reason I give it some credence is that the absence of the printing press and the dearth of literacy in the era in which Jesus is said to have ministered, coupled with the accumulated oeuvre of literature being much smaller, means that there was less to borrow from (or, if you like, be inspired by). It is plausible to see Homer as an influence, but in order to do that, you have to be willing to accept the possibility that Mark was an entirely fictional narrative, or at least one freely adapted to fit the Homeric formula; the kindest thing you can say is that Mark saw in Jesus (historic or not), Homeric parallels that he wanted to emphasize.
Not only Homer, they would have used the Old Testament texts as well. The author of Mark clearly knew the texts now found in the Old Testament that he used them to recreate Jesus as a better Moses, a better Joshua, a better everyone.
I do accept the possibility that Mark was entirely fictional, and if Jesus was originally believed to be a divine, then it must be entirely fictional.
You are not tracking me, Thrill. ALL stories whatever their actual intent or purpose can receive inspiration because our consciousness is part of God's consciousness. Our knowledge or beliefs about God also can only come from our consciousness. The prevalence of the Avatar template in speculations about God suggests that the Avatar meme is the way God sees us eventually learning about our spiritual challenges in overcoming our animal natures and coming to know God. I agree with that view and IMO the Jesus narrative is the most sophisticated and successful in achieving that to date.
So let me understand this: you believe that God inspired Homer to write down in the Iliad and the Odyssey details exactly as they were going to happen in Jesus life 800 years later--that God was using Homer to prophesy Jesus--that Homer was tapped into the Divine consciousness of God and it was God's inspiration flowing through Homer's mind which gave him details of Jesus' life that God alone knew in his omniscience would happen to Jesus in the future?
Entirely true, but it's hard for me to read all that much into Homeric parallels with Mark because if you look hard enough for it, I think you can find them in almost any literature. What fourth-rate novel isn't another rehash of the Hero's Journey? Is that a "connection" and if so how significant or deliberate?
The only reason I give it some credence is that the absence of the printing press and the dearth of literacy in the era in which Jesus is said to have ministered, coupled with the accumulated oeuvre of literature being much smaller, means that there was less to borrow from (or, if you like, be inspired by). It is plausible to see Homer as an influence, but in order to do that, you have to be willing to accept the possibility that Mark was an entirely fictional narrative, or at least one freely adapted to fit the Homeric formula; the kindest thing you can say is that Mark saw in Jesus (historic or not), Homeric parallels that he wanted to emphasize.
I think you're off on this, mordant, sorry. If I'm reading you right you're saying that Jesus' life lived similar to Odysseus' and Mark was just recognizing this fact. Mark would really have known nothing of Jesus' life because he was writing anywhere from 40 years to a half-century after Jesus' supposed death. Anybody who was there to witness all this would have been dead by that time. The likeliest scenario were dealing with here is that this is an example of Romeo and Juliet by Shakespeare which was borrowed by Arthur Laurents, a screenwriter of the 1950's who then rewrote it into West Side Story. It sets Romeo and Juliet and the Capulets and the Montagues in a New York barrio 400 years later.
It is not that there are some parallels, 1) there are too many, and 2) it was accepted practice to rewrite earlier classic texts to create new fiction. The idea that they used Homer is not some crazy theory, it is what we know they did. And anyone who was educated at that time, as Mark must have been, would have not only known Homer, they would have been educated using Homer.
Not only Homer, they would have used the Old Testament texts as well. The author of Mark clearly knew the texts now found in the Old Testament that he used them to recreate Jesus as a better Moses, a better Joshua, a better everyone.
I do accept the possibility that Mark was entirely fictional, and if Jesus was originally believed to be a divine, then it must be entirely fictional.
The bold is one of your serious bias issues and why I dismiss your views and claims of objectivity. Of course, the fact that you do not even entertain the possibility that our Reality exists within the consciousness field of God is your major bias. I suspect you will be among the more thoroughly surprised upon your death (as I was upon my encounter with it).
The bold is one of your serious bias issues and why I dismiss your views and claims of objectivity. Of course, the fact that you do not even entertain the possibility that our Reality exists within the consciousness field of God is your major bias. I suspect you will be among the more thoroughly surprised upon your death (as I was upon my encounter with it).
I read your profile, Mystic, first time. I notice you are a professor emeritus. That's no small accomplishment so I know you're an extremely intelligent individual--which makes you all the more baffling to me. I note you had a death encounter of some sort, probably an NDE. I immediately recalled a very famous one by Howard Storm which he has recounted numerous time. He stresses this encounter with Christ changed his entire life to the point his wife divorced him for his new beliefs. I'll put Storm's account below. It's the shortest I could find on YouTube but in a nutshell he died, spirit lifted out of his body, he's in a dark hallway and is being prodded forward by voices in a hospital hallway that gets darker as he proceeds. After a point he says "I won't go any further" whereupon these entities start to use profanity on him and berate him and begin to rip and tear at his spirit body and violate him in shameful sexual ways. He claims it was worst than physically being sexually assaulted. He cries out to Jesus and the entities retreat. I assume you had a similar life-changing event. I'm not surprised now that you think the way you do after such a harrowing experience.
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