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Agreed. But the question is, do we think that God smiles and accepts that we dive into that sin, and identify by it? Or should we strive to mortify the sin and live a holy life? The Bible never makes allowance for us to simply say "that's who God created me to be" and identify by it. In fact, that's why Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they WERE those things, not that they are.
So, I'll absolutely agree. The drunkard, the glutton, the gossip, the adulterer, all are called to put off their old selves. Just as the homosexual is also called to do the same.
Agreed. But the question is, do we think that God smiles and accepts that we dive into that sin, and identify by it? Or should we strive to mortify the sin and live a holy life? The Bible never makes allowance for us to simply say "that's who God created me to be" and identify by it. In fact, that's why Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they WERE those things, not that they are.
So, I'll absolutely agree. The drunkard, the glutton, the gossip, the adulterer, all are called to put off their old selves. Just as the homosexual is also called to do the same.
And if the church marries people of the same sex, it is endorsing it. That doesn't mean you turn out the homosexual, drunkard, glutton, gossip or adulterer. Jesus didn't come to save the righteous. He came to save the sinners. So you can accept people without endorsing it by marrying them in the church.
So I wouldn't want my church to do so. But I am not the definitive voice. None of us are. I don't believe the Pope is. Certainly not this Pope. And some churches feel differently and so I have no problem if they choose to do so.
And if the church marries people of the same sex, it is endorsing it. That doesn't mean you turn out the homosexual, drunkard, glutton, gossip or adulterer. Jesus didn't come to save the righteous. He came to save the sinners. So you can accept people without endorsing it by marrying them in the church.
Why would we think we can change the definition of marriage to something God never said it was?
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So I wouldn't want my church to do so. But I am not the definitive voice. None of us are. I don't believe the Pope is. Certainly not this Pope. And some churches feel differently and so I have no problem if they choose to do so.
Not sure why you're mentioning the Pope.
Now, as has been stated many times by various people...if your church wants to have a little service with 2 men or 2 women and call them married, so be it. But SHOULD they, as the topic says? Nothing in the Bible says they should. God certainly never suggested they should.
The GOVERNMENT should offer marriage to same sex couples. Hell, I think that the government should even consider if there is a rational way to offer marriage to groups of more than two fully consenting adults.
The CHURCHES, individually, should not be made to perform these ceremonies. As no one should be forced to be a member of any church or faith and a marriage with respect to the government side should not require participation in a wedding on the religious side of things.
No one should be made to approve of, or endorse, this (among plenty of other things.) But all the same, none of the faithful or anyone else has a right to stand in the way, demand a display of shame, or impose the particulars of their idea of faith on others.
You might think that gluttony is a sin but you don't get to tell me how much I'm allowed to eat in public or private. I can win a pie eating contest at the fair and be as proud as I want, and you can scowl and be mad because you think I should be ashamed, but it's your problem and not mine. I could make it my claim to fame and tell everyone about all of the contests and food eating challenges I've undertaken if that's what I want to do. It'll be between me and my doctor if that's a good idea for my health or not.
If your church refuses to hold pie eating contests because gluttony is a sin, then no one should be demanding that they do so.
But if your Mercy Catholic hospital, is the only one for many miles, and refuses to save my life in the ER because someone saw an article in the paper about my gluttony and they think it's a horrible sin and I an unrepentant sinner...that's a much bigger problem.
But I still think that even the refusal to accept or endorse homosexuality is hypocritical. The most oft cited passage of the Bible that I know of that indicates that it's a terrible sin, I think is in Leviticus and there's a ton of stuff in Leviticus that the faithful are all too happy to COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DISREGARD at all times. Like not even in the "oh, well, we are all sinners" way but in the "well we know that makes no sense, so we'll just pretend we never read that, anyways we don't have to worry about all those weird laws because Jesus" way.
And you all know it. There is a perfectly reasonable argument that marrying a gay couple in a church is about as much of a problem as the preacher giving a sermon while wearing garments made of mixed fabrics. Not to mention all that animal sacrifice that you guys are seriously neglecting. But supposedly the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was meant to relieve Christians of all that wacky Old Testament stuff. Whew! Well. Except for those people, we've gotta have somebody to judge and scold and exclude! Not that Jesus had anything to say about treating other people with that kind of disdain or anything...
I just really believe that in clinging so hard to the fiddly details and the "who do I get to pass judgment on! Gotta be somebody!"...what has been embraced by a lot of Americans as the modern face of their faith, really chucks out the window the much more serious messages about love and kindness and care of your fellow human beings. Wrathful people wanting a wrathful God, apparently, not that it's the first time in human history for that. I'm only grateful it seems to be a shrinking minority, at least in my country.
But whatever. If ya'll want to be hypocrites, there's no law against that. At least you're not out there trying to stone people or burn them at the stake, I guess we can all be grateful for that.
The GOVERNMENT should offer marriage to same sex couples. Hell, I think that the government should even consider if there is a rational way to offer marriage to groups of more than two fully consenting adults.
Why? They didn't invent it, why should the government be able to change it? That's like saying the government SHOULD be able to license anti-gravity boots, or give them out indiscriminantly.
Why? They didn't invent it, why should the government be able to change it? That's like saying the government SHOULD be able to license anti-gravity boots, or give them out indiscriminantly.
Because in the United States we have a Constitutional Republic that is a form of representative Democracy, which gives the people the right to vote in and elect leaders who are obliged to represent the will of the people.
The Bible has a lot to say about slavery, all of the best practices for how to buy, sell, take, treat your slaves. But when the will of the American people turned against the practice of human enslavement, well, we had to fight a war about it, but our government had the right to abolish it in the end and I am thankful for that.
So when a sizeable majority, 71% of Americans as of last year ( https://news.gallup.com/poll/506636/...olds-high.aspx ) believes that same sex couples should legally be permitted to get married, then yeah. The government should respect that or those individuals who do not, should be voted out of office.
I don't give a damn if the government invented anything. The American government did not invent cars but it does have the right to regulate their safety features and demand that manufacturers recall unsafe vehicles. Whether the government invented anything is immaterial.
Most American people are not in favor of a government identifying groups of people who are then told they do not have the same rights and privileges and obligations as everyone else insofar as how the government treats them. A marriage by way of the government is a legal contract. It is necessary to enforce the handling of property in terms of divorce or death, various privileges available to military spouses, spousal privilege to not be compelled to testify against your mate, matters of taxation, access to medical information and ability to make certain medical decisions...a whole bunch of things. Some of which can be done a different way, but even so it's a huge hassle, when it's not impossible.
Acting like marriage is solely about God in a capitalist society like America in 2023 is just delusional.
Also?
Christians didn't invent marriage, either. And this country does not regulate that its citizens have to share your beliefs regardless, at all. Our founders were not all Christians, this is not a Christian country, we do not have a Christian government. Your right to believe as you wish is held sacred and protected. Your right to insist that everyone else do so, isn't and NEVER WAS.
Why would we think we can change the definition of marriage to something God never said it was?
Not sure why you're mentioning the Pope.
Now, as has been stated many times by various people...if your church wants to have a little service with 2 men or 2 women and call them married, so be it. But SHOULD they, as the topic says? Nothing in the Bible says they should. God certainly never suggested they should.
Well, according to one of our other christian posters, the Catholic Church was the only church started by god.
Because in the United States we have a Constitutional Republic that is a form of representative Democracy, which gives the people the right to vote in and elect leaders who are obliged to represent the will of the people.
The Bible has a lot to say about slavery, all of the best practices for how to buy, sell, take, treat your slaves. But when the will of the American people turned against the practice of human enslavement, well, we had to fight a war about it, but our government had the right to abolish it in the end and I am thankful for that.
So when a sizeable majority, 71% of Americans as of last year ( https://news.gallup.com/poll/506636/...olds-high.aspx ) believes that same sex couples should legally be permitted to get married, then yeah. The government should respect that or those individuals who do not, should be voted out of office.
I don't give a damn if the government invented anything. The American government did not invent cars but it does have the right to regulate their safety features and demand that manufacturers recall unsafe vehicles. Whether the government invented anything is immaterial.
Most American people are not in favor of a government identifying groups of people who are then told they do not have the same rights and privileges and obligations as everyone else insofar as how the government treats them. A marriage by way of the government is a legal contract. It is necessary to enforce the handling of property in terms of divorce or death, various privileges available to military spouses, spousal privilege to not be compelled to testify against your mate, matters of taxation, access to medical information and ability to make certain medical decisions...a whole bunch of things. Some of which can be done a different way, but even so it's a huge hassle, when it's not impossible.
Acting like marriage is solely about God in a capitalist society like America in 2023 is just delusional.
Also?
Christians didn't invent marriage, either. And this country does not regulate that its citizens have to share your beliefs regardless, at all. Our founders were not all Christians, this is not a Christian country, we do not have a Christian government. Your right to believe as you wish is held sacred and protected. Your right to insist that everyone else do so, isn't and NEVER WAS.
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