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I am not sure I need to see all planes at an airport be flown before I can conclude they are airplanes, and of course I think we all agree about this. My point is that there are many ways we can rightfully conclude what we do without necessarily going the length of investigation you suggest. Many ways for many reasons I won't get into here, because again I think we all know them.
I've never seen a god on the other hand. Never seen how one looks or acts, so on what basis can a person like me think a god exists? I know of none other than faith, and again, faith is simply not good reason enough for me or people like me.
I was speaking from the hypothetical point of view of someone who had never seen an airplane fly, perhaps a time traveler from the 19th century or something.
Of course airplanes are physical objects and they move millions of people all over the earth on a daily basis so for us denizens of the 21st century it is kind of a silly example.
Gods on the other hand, are invisible or only represented as statues or paintings, and their exploits are only asserted in campfire stories ... also their claims on humans are highly consequential so that raises the bar for evidence even higher. So Cardinal's hypotheticals also fail on another level, which is that the amount of evidence required for some things is greater than required for others. The more fantastical and allegedly consequential the claim, the greater the evidence that must be provided. Except of course that people advancing those claims are playing upon people's fears and insecurities.
I was speaking from the hypothetical point of view of someone who had never seen an airplane fly, perhaps a time traveler from the 19th century or something.
Of course airplanes are physical objects and they move millions of people all over the earth on a daily basis so for us denizens of the 21st century it is kind of a silly example.
Gods on the other hand, are invisible or only represented as statues or paintings, and their exploits are only asserted in campfire stories ... also their claims on humans are highly consequential so that raises the bar for evidence even higher. So Cardinal's hypotheticals also fail on another level, which is that the amount of evidence required for some things is greater than required for others. The more fantastical and allegedly consequential the claim, the greater the evidence that must be provided. Except of course that people advancing those claims are playing upon people's fears and insecurities.
Please read below.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
Though it seems we don't "see eye to eye" about such things, I very much appreciate your interest and approach toward better understanding. Maybe just to better understand me is all, but here's to better understanding in any case! Whatever I can do to contribute along these lines with pleasure. Thanks.
First a simple answer to your simple question, "please tell me what would be a good evidence of God?"
A little puzzling, because there are so many examples of proof you and I both know if not require about the existence of so many things, so I believe you actually do know the answer, but I'll try to be more specific if it helps any. Good evidence of God: making himself appear before me, or experienced by me in some way. That would be enough for me, but for me and others too, even better if he left me something that could only be attributed to the existence of a god. Something like the golden plates he left for Joseph Smith. That would certainly do it for me and all concerned! Right? Even better if the plates were made of a metal unknown to man rather than gold. Though I could do with a couple plates of gold for good measure.
You call the rest "doing it my way," but my way is simply the way of considering all angles, including yours, and applying the best our critical thinking skills can manage in the way of understanding, judgement and conclusion.
Unfortunately your airplane and Hindu temple example is rife with logic and reason issues that make it difficult to even know where to begin, but here goes...
You, me, and just about any rational person can experience your plane scenario, and we can all draw the same conclusion. Or what would be any good reason to think such a process doesn't confirm the existence of that plane? There is none. It is "in fact an airplane." Your own words. We all agree.
The Hindu could just as well point to the same plane and say, "here is God, right in front of you." What good reason do we, you or me, have to believe that plane is evidence a god exists? There is none. Maybe instead of a plane (or anything else the Hindu wishes to suggest is evidence of a god), the Hindu takes us to an impressive temple.
In the same manner as with the plane, you and I can both confirm the temple is made of a certain material. Includes interesting images that we know have been used to represent notions about Hindu gods. Ultimately to confirm the temple is actually a temple. Just like the plane is a plane. Indeed, "in fact a temple."
In all such cases, what good reason do we have to conclude otherwise? None. What good reason do we have to conclude any person's claims beyond this are true? Beyond what we can all observe, test and agree upon in the same way? None.
In the same way, I can ask you how you are going to validate that a watermelon is a scarecrow? You can't, so does this mean a watermelon could possibly be a scarecrow? Reasonably, logically or realistically speaking? Of course not.
Ultimately I wonder how you can validate any other way to establish the truth of such notions about God. You can't. We all know this and this is why faith is ultimately the explanation. The faith explanation doesn't work for me, however. I don't have faith the plane is a plane, that the Hindu temple is a Hindu temple or that the earth revolves around the sun. None of us need faith to know and understand the truth of these matters!
Except for some, with the exception about the existence of a god. For some like you perhaps but not for people like me.
Fair?
Mostly fair enough and I wasn’t sure if I should write the below reply or put an end to our conversation? And it’s because I am not sure if this an extension to my argument or perhaps just a thought - or perhaps you have already answered in your last paragraph? But this is what crossed my mind while was reading the underlined above;
“OK, since we are doing it your way, you know the right way, and say
God appeared before you
And you experienced God in some way.
And God left you a set of golden plates
And God also left you a pair of plates made with a metal unknown to mankind.
All 4 has happened to you - and now we switch the roles where you are now a believer and I am an Atheist.
So you make a claim that God exists - but remember, we are doing it YOUR way, the right. So I take you to a court and ask you to provide your “good evidence†to the judge and the jury - and prove it.
And you present your case with two golden plates, a set plates made with an unknown metal - and your statement under oath that you have seen God and you have experienced God.
What law book, science book or logic book or book of any established form of knowledge they will refer to analyze your evidences, and issue a verdict whether God exists are not?
Other than viruses, malaria carrying mosquitoes, poisonous snakes and spiders, usw, existing, do you have any evidence for your claim that does not refute your own claim?
As if there aren't countless links, sources and where to go that can be considered either way?
I am not sure there is any suggestion, position or belief along these lines that hasn't been argued in this forum or that I haven't heard one way of another, and despite all of it, this simple fact remains...
"If there were any real solid justification to believe a god exists, we'd all be believers."
So far we are not all believers because no such evidence or justification exists. No links, sources or what else there is to learn can change this fundamental fact. Certainly nothing I read in from your link is any different. Until such time anything should change along these lines, people like me simply have no choice but to be an atheist.
Mostly fair enough and I wasn’t sure if I should write the below reply or put an end to our conversation? And it’s because I am not sure if this an extension to my argument or perhaps just a thought - or perhaps you have already answered in your last paragraph? But this is what crossed my mind while was reading the underlined above;
“OK, since we are doing it your way, you know the right way, and say
God appeared before you
And you experienced God in some way.
And God left you a set of golden plates
And God also left you a pair of plates made with a metal unknown to mankind.
All 4 has happened to you - and now we switch the roles where you are now a believer and I am an Atheist.
So you make a claim that God exists - but remember, we are doing it YOUR way, the right. So I take you to a court and ask you to provide your “good evidence†to the judge and the jury - and prove it.
And you present your case with two golden plates, a set plates made with an unknown metal - and your statement under oath that you have seen God and you have experienced God.
What law book, science book or logic book or book of any established form of knowledge they will refer to analyze your evidences, and issue a verdict whether God exists are not?
Good question(s) and I have run out of time to continue much longer here, so just this before I go...
I should have made more clear that the evidence I would require would work for all concerned. This would mean that God left me something that would prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that only a god could have left me. Nothing a man could make (or make up) and something that could be tested and verified as such. But good point about how that proves a god, because now we'd have to wonder if it was something that just came from outer space?
We'd all have to ponder how that would be however, and perhaps the more convincing touch -- for all concerned -- is that the plates had an incredible prophesy inscribed that actually came true! Something that could be widely followed, reported and verified! For all concerned. Still better the prophesy be something like a stated time and place that God would make an appearance! For all to see as well! And he MAKES THAT APPEARANCE. This would finally do it once and for all. Right?
Or as mentioned once before, something like a list of all winners and losers for the rest of the NFL season. Something only a supernatural being could know in advance. This too could be validated and verified. Even better that the 9rs go all the way despite last night's very disappointing game end.
This help any better?
Cheers until perhaps when I return tomorrow and thanks again...
Good question(s) and I have run out of time to continue much longer here, so just this before I go...
I should have made more clear that the evidence I would require would work for all concerned.
This is most likely not possible.
"all concerned" are what?
Non-believers and Atheists who want to believe if any evidence is provided?
You are talking about what? about a 1 billion people?
I would be pleasantly surprised if they all agree to what YOU wanted as evidence of God.
but lets continue below and we will connect the dots .....
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This would mean that God left me something that would prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that only a god could have left me. Nothing a man could make (or make up) and something that could be tested and verified as such. But good point about how that proves a god, because now we'd have to wonder if it was something that just came from outer space?
true and agreed but there is a caveat here. The underlined above.
200 years ago, no human could think that a man could land on the moon, so an Atheist would say, if an entity can travel from earth and land on the moon, I will take him as God as this is something a man cannot do. Only a God can do such a thing.
The gist of the logic is, what we think TODAY that a man cannot do, and only a God can do, could very well be something that a man can actually do in a couple of 100 years.
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We'd all have to ponder how that would be however, and perhaps the more convincing touch -- for all concerned -- is that the plates had an incredible prophesy inscribed that actually came true! Something that could be widely followed, reported and verified! For all concerned.
This is perhaps the crux of it all and I think this is where the disconnect is.
And there are two parts of it.
First: If a prophecy is made and it comes true in front of you, then there is no test of faith left.
In other words, why wouldn't God just made us, and provided us with an evidence as per OUR liking? We would all be believers with no choice. Correct?
There wouldn't be any point left to giving us life. No test of faith.
God would simply create us, showed us the evidence as per our demand, we would believe and he would send us to heaven. All 8 billions of us, and all who passed away and all who are yet to come.
What would be the point of life then?
And this is why God, did not do that. He gave us life, and he gave us ability and freedom to choose. The redline or the green line, which one would you follow?
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Still better the prophesy be something like a stated time and place that God would make an appearance! For all to see as well! And he MAKES THAT APPEARANCE. This would finally do it once and for all. Right?
Now THIS is the prophecy!
And this prophecy has already been made for EVERYONE and I believe in it too.
We as humans have three main choices here.
Either
1 - Reject the prophecy as it's not good enough.
2 - Trust this prophecy but want the results to happen in this life or else they won't believe.
3 - Trust in this prophecy as it has been made and wait till it happens.
Because the prophecy says, it will happen on the judgement day - BUT - it wouldn't be of any benefit to those who did not believe.
As per the prophecy, deniers WILL believe on that day - but it will be too late, and of no benefit because the time will be over by then.
I think you fall in number 2 and I belong to number 3
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Or as mentioned once before, something like a list of all winners and losers for the rest of the NFL season. Something only a supernatural being could know in advance. This too could be validated and verified. Even better that the 9rs go all the way despite last night's very disappointing game end.
I think this should help us agree on something.
Once I take you to the same court again where we went before and you provide your new evidences of God, some people in the jury may yawn and some people after laughing, may recommend you for psychological evaluation.
There is no established form of knowledge that tells weather predicting the NFL result makes someone, a God.
But for you, it actually is the case.
So what exactly are you doing here?
You are NOT wanting to see the "Evidence of God" that you can prove it to anyone.
You are wanting is the SIGNS of God that will work for YOU to form a faith without the need of proving it to anyone.
Some others may agree with you on these signs, some wont, some will laugh at you - and you will never be able to prove it to all 1 Billion Atheists that you have found the "evidence of God" - no, not in a million years.
So what should be agree at? The same thing I've been saying all along.
God is found by his SIGNS and not by evidence. These signs may mean something to the seeker of God but these signs may mean nothing to the deniers.
The off-set here is, that you wanted the signs of God as per your liking but God has already left his signs for us to seek and choose to believe or not to believe. Our choice.
Atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell was asked what he would say if he found himself face to face with God. Hie reply: "Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence."
It's very difficult to conceive of what an unequivocal, unassailable, convincing-to-all revelation of the existence of God might be. Even the most startling demonstration - a huge God-face in the sky who announces he is God and will destroy the Moon in five minutes and then does so, or perhaps destroys the entire population of the U.S. and then brings it back to life an hour later - would be dismissed by some as aliens, illusion, technological wizardy or Anything But God.
But even if such a revelation were possible, it would be coercive. People would not turn to God in the exercise of their moral judgment and free will but because there was no rational alternative choice. They would "choose God" the same way someone with a gun to his head "chooses" to do or say whatever his captor demands. As someone else suggested above, God may as well have created robots programmed to believe.
I happen to believe God's purpose was to place beings with genuine free will into a morally challenging environment and provide enough non-coercive clues to His existence to satisfy those who seek Him. He desired genuine communion with beings who appreciated the difference between good and evil and turned to Him of their free will. I happen to believe the non-coercive clues are abundant.
Those who find the clues insufficient, or who do not seek Him at all, are likewise exercising the free will they have been given. Their loss is, I believe, the price God was willing to pay to accomplish His purpose. (I personally believe that most of those who claim the clues are insufficient have not engaged in a sincere and diligent quest and might more accurately be described as willfully blind.)
(Yes, the above description of God's purpose does not address the seemingly senseless death of children and things such as this. The description is overly simplistic, but I believe it's basically correct.)
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