To Hell with Hell!? (Does Hell really exist in Christianity?) (myth, church)

[Thoreau424]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

I searched for about 15 seconds before I found catholic.com. Do you see that -- catholic.com.

It's not my fault if the catholic church remains living in a previous century.

Whoa, catholic dot..... com. They've gotta be selling pope merchandise and stuff.

In a lot of ways, they seem to be living in a millenia back. Isn't that when much of their ideas came from?

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Thoreau424

Whoa, catholic dot..... com. They've gotta be selling pope merchandise and stuff.

In a lot of ways, they seem to be living in a millenia back. Isn't that when much of their ideas came from?

That's where I see the catholic church as existing.

[RomulusXXV]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Perhaps this is the cynic in me, but I do have to wonder whether ''hell' as believed and taught by the majority of Christian denominations is necessary to ensure continued membership. Take away hell and you also take away 'control'. I've seen and heard so many examples as to how a belief in hell and the avoidance of going there is at least one of the reasons behind church attendance of perhaps many people.

Originally Posted by O'Darby

Curious logic.

Dismissing the belief and the teaching of eternal torment is curious logic?

Originally Posted by O'Darby

My guess would be that (1) the emphasis on judgment and condemnation is because this was a major emphasis in Jesus' ministry; and (2) "taking away" hell would require rewriting Christianity. Perhaps we can expand on your, er, logic and suggest that the NT authors inserted the teachings about judgment and condemnation into Jesus' mouth because they knew that churches in future centuries would find this a useful tool to ensure continued membership. Ya think?

WHAT???

Again ...dismissing the belief and the teaching of eternal torment is flawed logic?

Originally Posted by O'Darby

I attended Southern Baptist churches in Texas for quite a few years. I have been a member of some exceedingly conservative Christian organizations. I can honestly say that I don't recall hell ever being the focus of a sermon or discussion. Honestly - never. I listen to conservative Christian talk radio all the time. I'll bet hell is mentioned no more than twice a week, and pretty much never in any fear-mongering context.

The teaching of hell as a REAL place of eternal torment that awaits 'unbelievers' is ingrained in the minds of the majority of Christians. Regular sermons are not required to reinforce this belief. You come across as being an otherwise smart cookie, O'Darby ... why then are you so naive on this issue?

Originally Posted by O'Darby

I think this is another fantasy on the part of those who would like to think this is what Christianity is like. We're Christians mostly because we FEAR HELL. Our leaders play upon this deep fear to manipulate and control us. Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is pretty much what we still get from the pulpit.

It stands to reason that Christians who JUST KNOW that 'hell' awaits 'unbelievers' will quite naturally fear this outcome. Again, this does not need to be a feature of every sermon, even though 'hell and brimstone' sermons ARE featured predominantly in some sermons by some denominations. How come you don't know this?

Originally Posted by O'Darby

This isn't even vaguely true, at least in my experience - virtually all of which has been in Texas, not exactly most peoples' idea of a model of progressive Christianity.

Are you just playing dumb on this particular Christian belief or are you serious?

As for Jesus, He spoke to His audience in parables and in metaphors. He would also incorporate the beliefs of his audience - as fiction as they may be - and use them with which to make a point. As far as I know, Jesus didn't hold weekly seminars regarding 'the state of the dead' and other issues that require lengthy research and thorough understanding. And so, during his brief encounters with his audience/s, He would come down to their level rather than to preach rocket science to them. They - Jesus' audience - had some pretty wacky beliefs regarding the afterlife. Jesus met them where they were at.

Anyway, let me ask you a question. WHAT, according to what YOU believe the Bible tells us, awaits an 'unbeliever' when they die?

[GoCardinals]

Originally Posted by locust2

it's the living that are tormented by the thought of the grave . the dead ,they don't have a clue

I would’ve probably believed you only if you were someone who had died and came back to tell us that.
But that’s not the case

You fall in the same category as many other Atheists who keep harping about “evidence”.

Mark these words for yourself.

You don’t know, and you don’t know that you don’t know.

[RomulusXXV]

Originally Posted by locust2

it's the living that are tormented by the thought of the grave . the dead ,they don't have a clue.

Originally Posted by GoCardinals

I would’ve probably believed you only if you were someone who had died and came back to tell us that.
But that’s not the case

You fall in the same category as many other Atheists who keep harping about “evidence”.

Mark these words for yourself.

You don’t know, and you don’t know that you don’t know.

Solomon wouldn't have known from 'experience' either, but he had a stab at it from his earthly position:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

[O'Darby]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Dismissing the belief and the teaching of eternal torment is curious logic?

No, suggesting that Christian churches teach the doctrine of Hell to "control believers" and "maintain membership" strikes me as curious logic, particularly since in my experience (almost all of it with very conservative Protestant churches in Texas) they scarcely mention Hell at all. AT ALL.

Again ...dismissing the belief and the teaching of eternal torment is flawed logic?

This isn't what your post said. Your post said you thought churches taught the doctrine of Hell to control members and maintain membership. I said I think they teach it because it's prominent in the Bible and has been established Christian doctrine since the time of Jesus.

The teaching of hell as a REAL place of eternal torment that awaits 'unbelievers' is ingrained in the minds of the majority of Christians. Regular sermons are not required to reinforce this belief. You come across as being an otherwise smart cookie, O'Darby ... why then are you so naive on this issue?

It's "ingrained" in our minds because it's prominent in the Bible and has been mainstream Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant theology for centuries. That being said, most Christians in my experience scarcely give it a thought because they believe they are saved or on the path to salvation. The doctrine of Hell doesn't occupy my thoughts for five minutes a year and certainly exercises no terrorizing influence or "control" over my Christian walk.

It stands to reason that Christians who JUST KNOW that 'hell' awaits 'unbelievers' will quite naturally fear this outcome. Again, this does not need to be a feature of every sermon, even though 'hell and brimstone' sermons ARE featured predominantly in some sermons by some denominations. How come you don't know this?

Breaking news: Christians aren't unbelievers. Why would we fear Hell? Give me some examples of denominations where you think hellfire and brimstone sermons still predominate. As I say, I'm a devotee of Christian radio for lots of reasons. Some the radio preachers are absolute nutcases (IMO) but I hear no hellfire and brimstone.

Are you just playing dumb on this particular Christian belief or are you serious?

As for Jesus, He spoke to His audience in parables and in metaphors. He would also incorporate the beliefs of his audience - as fiction as they may be - and use them with which to make a point. As far as I know, Jesus didn't hold weekly seminars regarding 'the state of the dead' and other issues that require lengthy research and thorough understanding. And so, during his brief encounters with his audience/s, He would come down to their level rather than to preach rocket science to them. They - Jesus' audience - had some pretty wacky beliefs regarding the afterlife. Jesus met them where they were at.

Anyway, let me ask you a question. WHAT, according to what YOU believe the Bible tells us, awaits an 'unbeliever' when they die?

No, your explanation of Jesus' motives and methods is just a way to avoid the clear biblical teaching. There is absolutely no evidence this is what Jesus was doing and this is not what the NT authors and early church fathers thought He was doing. The doctrine of Hell isn't my personal favorite, but I don't feel free to rewrite Christianity on that basis.

I believe a distinctly unpleasant fate awaits unbelievers, one that will be vastly less pleasant than what awaits believers. Whatever it may be, we will see that it is worthy of the God in whom we trust. I tend to believe that the fire and brimstone, lake of fire-type language is metaphoric and hyperbolic and intended to express an otherworldy reality that cannot be fully expressed in human language. Because I am a believer, the precise fate of unbelievers is barely on my radar screen, let alone in the forefront of my thoughts.

Here is a short video by Dr. William Lane Craig, one of the foremost Christian philosophers and apologists of our time. In my experience, this is much more typical of modern Christian discussions of Hell than any hellfire and brimstone (which Craig specifically rejects):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CjSy9CWEeU&t=1s[/url]

[Derek41]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

I searched for about 15 seconds before I found catholic.com. Do you see that -- catholic.com.

It's not my fault if the catholic church remains living in a previous century.

Evangelical churches are much bigger on the Hell doctrine, that’s all she’s saying.
And the Catholic Church is much more liberal and tolerant too.
When the Pope accepted Muslims for Mass service, Evangelicals were horrified and mortified by it.
You want Christians 100 years behind the times - there you have it!

[GoCardinals]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

Solomon wouldn't have known from 'experience' either, but he had a stab at it from his earthly position:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

I am not a follower of the Bible - but let’s briefly look at it.

If Solomon was supposedly a true prophet of God then there is no way he can say that because it seems to deny the existence of afterlife, the happening of the day of judgement, the Heaven and the Hell.

God sent prophets towards mankind with message of monotheism and warnings and also glad tidings in the hereafter - and not the other war round.

So,
IMO, it’s an illogical assertion and it supports my suspicion that the modern day Bible is not preserved in its original form - many many changes are made over the centuries, and many things are lost or wrongly translated.

IMO, the verse you quoted has either been taken out of context or it’s one of those corrupted ones which states that a prophet sent by God is preaching the non-existence of God, and non-existence of eHeaven and Hell - especially when it says there is nothing after death.

A use of basic common sense should’ve deciphered this for you.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Derek41

Evangelical churches are much bigger on the Hell doctrine, that’s all she’s saying.
And the Catholic Church is much more liberal and tolerant too.
When the Pope accepted Muslims for Mass service, Evangelicals were horrified and mortified by it.
You want Christians 100 years behind the times - there you have it!

No, her comments were much more all-encompassing.

[stephenMM]

I see no proof that Hell exists at all. That's because there is no proof. Other than if you're in a bad space and worried and suffering, you could describe that as Hell, and if things go right every time and you're happy, then you may say you are in Heaven. Heaven and Hell are only symbolic and poetic terms, they're not real places. No one on earth has ever gone to either place, just as no one on earth can take us by the hand and bring us to Hell or Heaven.