Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well...how does crucifixion sound? After all, "they" crucified an innocent man. "They" didn't know the truth. "They" judged and criticized without knowing.
The bold is nonsense. In panentheism, it is God's existence and life processes that form the "natural laws" that provide the order and structure to our Reality, NOT necessarily His Will or plan or purpose. God is Spirit. As "spiritual cells" of God we are part of His Life and are supposed to reproduce His Spirit (that is what "children" DO, not mere "creations").
Pantheism ultimately means the universe itself is god. Which would in turn make us god, as we are a part of the universe. In reality it could be the case, but it would mean there is no outside creator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Which is not answering my point. We can imagine many different versions of a creator god just by changing it's possible attributes. Loving/Evil, all knowing/a bit of an idiot, gender/no gender, moral/amoral/immoral, usw.
You appear to want to answer for your god, which I presume is the all knowing, all powerful, loving god many Christians believe in. Which then raises questions such as how does this god just know things; what is it made of; where did this god stuff come from; or if this god is immaterial, how does an immaterial intelligence function?
We do not need an ordered creation or eternal existence. Because chaos will always produce areas of order by chance, just as a shuffled pack of cards can deal a royal flush, or 100 tosses of 3 coins will produce 3 heads.
Maybe universes are bubbles of order in an infinite sea of chaos.
Which requires an ordered, non-chaotic god. So where did that gods order come from?
I have the right because I am a moral person, and those are not criticisms, they are questions.
The thread fits well no matter the actual attributes of the creator. If we do pursue questions wanting to understand the creator, its at that time we dive into specifics. Ultimately I keep coming back to this, is the criticizism and finding fault. Its the disagreement we have with the creator, no matter their attributes. To say the creator is wrong for something or doing something, would be a criticism that's not valid for us to say. What if he is diabolical, and loves to torture his creation? Does that make him not right to do it? If that is why he created us, then he is within his right to do so. This is where I lose a lot of people when saying this, but this is the thought we have to accept when examining the subject. To refuse it, would be closing the mind.
So far, all we have is one universe. And of course within the one, so far there is only one planet with life on it. Among the life, there is at least one who can ponder these kinds of things about existence of anything. All this tells us it is extremely unlikely for these things to arise by accident or chaos.
Now you ask me where did god's order come from? You would have to ask him. No, what I would say is, science confirms this universe had a beginning. If there are multiple universes, we can also assume they had a beginning. So its confirmed at least from the universes' perspective to all began at some point. What's not confirmed is if god had a beginning. Something had to not have a beginning, and so far we've ruled out the universe.
The bold is nonsense. In panentheism, it is God's existence and life processes that form the "natural laws" that provide the order and structure to our Reality, NOT necessarily His Will or plan or purpose. God is Spirit. As "spiritual cells" of God we are part of His Life and are supposed to reproduce His Spirit (that is what "children" DO, not mere "creations").
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Pantheism ultimately means the universe itself is god. Which would in turn make us god, as we are a part of the universe. In reality it could be the case, but it would mean there is no outside creator.
It is panENtheism,, there is no separate Creator, and we are "cells" of God, NOT God, per se. The cells of my body are part of me, but they are not me, per se. PanENthesim means God is immanent AND transcendent, just as we are to the cells that comprise us.
Luke 4:29-30: "They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff.
30 [B]But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.
[/b]."
The people's intention was to throw him off the cliff. BUT, he walked right through the crowd and went on his way instead.
Yes and that wasn't my point was it? I was addressing someone claiming that no one ever wanted to throw Jesus off a cliff.
Well...how does crucifixion sound? After all, "they" crucified an innocent man. "They" didn't know the truth. "They" judged and criticized without knowing.
Aren't some of us..."They"?
You're referring to the Roman authorities, of course, when you say "they". The Jews didn't crucify anyone.
The thread fits well no matter the actual attributes of the creator. If we do pursue questions wanting to understand the creator, its at that time we dive into specifics. Ultimately I keep coming back to this, is the criticizism and finding fault. Its the disagreement we have with the creator, no matter their attributes. To say the creator is wrong for something or doing something, would be a criticism that's not valid for us to say. What if he is diabolical, and loves to torture his creation? Does that make him not right to do it? If that is why he created us, then he is within his right to do so.
Even if morality is objective? Because an objective truth must exist whether a god exists or not, so it would be external to that god, and not created by it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
This is where I lose a lot of people when saying this, but this is the thought we have to accept when examining the subject. To refuse it, would be closing the mind.
It is not that you are losing people, it is that you are making claims without providing evidence for them, and without thinking about the logical conclusions of your claims. That is closed minded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
So far, all we have is one universe. And of course within the one, so far there is only one planet with life on it. Among the life, there is at least one who can ponder these kinds of things about existence of anything. All this tells us it is extremely unlikely for these things to arise by accident or chaos.
No, it tells us we do not know of other universes or other life bearing planets. And you have provided no evidence a multiverse is not possible, or life on other planets. And as life is just chemistry that can replicate, and chemistry is universal, then we have no reason to believe life only exists on this planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Now you ask me where did god's order come from? You would have to ask him. No, what I would say is, science confirms this universe had a beginning. If there are multiple universes, we can also assume they had a beginning. So its confirmed at least from the universes' perspective to all began at some point. What's not confirmed is if god had a beginning. Something had to not have a beginning, and so far we've ruled out the universe.
Which does not answer the question, it just repeats the claim for an infinite creator while presuming that creator is a god.
You're referring to the Roman authorities, of course, when you say "they". The Jews didn't crucify anyone.
According to Mark, the Romans reluctantly crucified Jesus because the Jewish leaders asked them to.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No, what I would say is, science confirms this universe had a beginning. If there are multiple universes, we can also assume they had a beginning. So its confirmed at least from the universes' perspective to all began at some point. What's not confirmed is if god had a beginning. Something had to not have a beginning, and so far we've ruled out the universe.
