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Your statement that the Bible does not give an exact place where the prophecy would be fulfilled is (absolutely untrue). In Ezekiel chapters 37,38 and 39 it states that the Jewish people would return to the (land of Israel) in the latter years. The prophecy states that they would retake (Jerusalem). How more exact could it be? And it states that this would happen after a world wide exile. And these prophecies are spoken of in the Old Testament, so you can't claim that the writers of the New Testament had anything to do with it. Also, the New Testament states that when these O.T. prophecies would take place, the nations of the East would have the ability to raise up an army of 200 million men. The nations of the East now have that ability. When the New Testament was written, it is doubtful there was that many people on the earth, let alone and army of 200 million. Yet the prophecies of the New Testament, which refer to the prophecies of the Old Testament knew such an army would be possible after the Jews returned to Israel in that day. How did the writers of the New Testament know that? Also, the Old Testament stated that when the Jews would return, Jerusalems East Gate would still exist, and that Gate would have a Porch Gate that was added to the orginal Gate, and that Gate would be sealed up. And all attempts to open the Gate would fail. And I might add here, that the Porch Gate was built and sealed up by non believers in the Bible. How did the writers of the Old Testament know that? How did the writers of the Bible know that the Old East Gate would still exist? How did the writers of the Old Testament know that a Porch Gate would be added? How did the writers of the Old Testament know that the Porch Gate would be seal up? How did the writers of the Old Testament know that all attempts to open the Porch Gate would fail? How did the writers of the Bible know all of this would happen, especially after the fact that all of this has happened hundredes of years after the writers of the prophecy had died.
The empirical evidence is there, and you can read it for yourself in Book, chapter, and verse.
And even in the 1600s there is clear documentation that Christians believed based on the prophecies of the Bible, that before Christ could return, the Jews would first have to return to Israel and retake Jerusalem. So you can't claim that these prophecies are obsure, especially when we have the facts of the historical record.
Those verses are still to vague. You're taking events that have occurred and trying to fit them with the prophecies. Also, biblical prophecies don't give as specific detail as you claim. What objective and independent scientific source has actually proven that biblical prophecy has come true.
Those verses are still to vague. You're taking events that have occurred and trying to fit them with the prophecies. Also, biblical prophecies don't give as specific detail as you claim. What objective and independent scientific source has actually proven that biblical prophecy has come true.
I'm taking events that have occurred in the past?
The Bible tells us these events would take place in the latter years. It would take place when the armies of the East could raise up an army of 200 million men. It would be in the day when Jerusalems Porch Gate would exist. It would be in a time when the ancient cities of Israel have been rebuilt and inhabited. And the Jewish people would have returned from a worldwide exile. This prophecy was made about 2600 years ago.
It's not even a matter of vagueness but rather of how unconvincing and tenuous the connection between those verses and modern events are.
The prophecy that speaks about Jerusalems East Gate speaks about the Porch Gate that would be added on. Hundreds of years later the Porch Gate was added on, and it was sealed up just like the prophecy stated it would be. And this was done by (non belivers) in the Bible. And the prophecy stated that the Porch Gate would remain sealed until the end of time. Jerusalems East Gate remains sealed today just as the prophecy stated it would be. I find that very convincing. And the Old East Gate is the foundation of the new Porch Gate. On every level, the Bible prophecy is correct. And it was modern events that fulfilled the ancient prophecy.
The prophecy that speaks about Jerusalems East Gate speaks about the Porch Gate that would be added on. Hundreds of years later the Porch Gate was added on, and it was sealed up just like the prophecy stated it would be.
Hehehe maybe someone should go open it and see if the person gets smitten by thunder.
Wait a minute, they were going to blow up the gate back in 1967 but didn't because of a Jewish group who believes it should only open when the messiah comes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
And this was done by (non belivers) in the Bible.
yes thats right but for some reason you aren't telling the whole story and have worded this in a rather misleading way. A Muslim named Suleiman ordered to build(+a graveyard in the front) it and shut it most likely to keep the messiah away. No not Jesus but the jewish messiah who hasn't made an appearance yet, the east gate that Jesus went through was demolished by the romans nearly 1600 years before this one was built and shut.
When you say "non-believers" you make it sound like the people who built it didn't have biblical prophecies in mind which as I've said is very misleading. Still though, I don't know whether Sumelia ever read revelations but you gotta love his position. By shutting the gate you squash Jewish prophecy but half fulfill Christian prophecy. By leaving the gate open you make christians have to wait before claiming their prophecy to be true but give Jews hope that their prophecy will be fulfilled and the messiah will go through the gate. Say what you want but this is inevitable and self-fulfiling hooey if you ask me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
And the prophecy stated that the Porch Gate would remain sealed until the end of time. Jerusalems East Gate remains sealed today just as the prophecy stated it would be. I find that very convincing. And the Old East Gate is the foundation of the new Porch Gate. On every level, the Bible prophecy is correct. And it was modern events that fulfilled the ancient prophecy
That's nice to hear but shouldn't you wait until the messiah comes through them one more time before declaring it a fulfilled prophecy?
The Bible tells us these events would take place in the latter years. It would take place when the armies of the East could raise up an army of 200 million men. It would be in the day when Jerusalems Porch Gate would exist. It would be in a time when the ancient cities of Israel have been rebuilt and inhabited. And the Jewish people would have returned from a worldwide exile. This prophecy was made about 2600 years ago.
When in the past did any of this happen?
Bah and phooey. The biblical prophecies are unconvincing and self fulfilling. Where's an independent source that objectively proves these prophecies prophecied about any of these modern events. The claim that biblical prophecy is proven fact has so far only proven to be alot of rubbish.
Hehehe maybe someone should go open it and see if the person gets smitten by thunder.
Wait a minute, they were going to blow up the gate back in 1967 but didn't because of a Jewish group who believes it should only open when the messiah comes.
yes thats right but for some reason you aren't telling the whole story and have worded this in a rather misleading way. A Muslim named Suleiman ordered to build(+a graveyard in the front) it and shut it most likely to keep the messiah away. No not Jesus but the jewish messiah who hasn't made an appearance yet, the east gate that Jesus went through was demolished by the romans nearly 1600 years before this one was built and shut.
When you say "non-believers" you make it sound like the people who built it didn't have biblical prophecies in mind which as I've said is very misleading. Still though, I don't know whether Sumelia ever read revelations but you gotta love his position. By shutting the gate you squash Jewish prophecy but half fulfill Christian prophecy. By leaving the gate open you make christians have to wait before claiming their prophecy to be true but give Jews hope that their prophecy will be fulfilled and the messiah will go through the gate. Say what you want but this is inevitable and self-fulfiling hooey if you ask me.
That's nice to hear but shouldn't you wait until the messiah comes through them one more time before declaring it a fulfilled prophecy?
1. Twice in the last centuary attempts were made by Moslems to break through the Gate, and both attempts failed. On Dec. 9, 1917 the Grand Mufti who was the Arab leader of Jerusalem tried to open the Gate. Yet just as they were about to smash through it with sledghammers. Allenby's airplace flew over Jerusalem dropping leaflets that told the Arabs to flee. The Arab soldiers did leave the city, and the Gate was left intact.
Then in 1967 King Hussein was just about to open the Gate to allow easy access to the El Aksa Mosque for Moslem believers. Yet just as they were about to use their air hammers on the Gate, the six day war broke out and once again the Moslems had to flee the city.
2. Jerusalems East Gate was never destroyed by the Romans, it was buried. If it had been destroyed the prophecy would of been false. The Old East Gate remains intact today, underground. It is the foundation for the East Gate that we see today. And that is why the Bible said that it would be the Porch Gate that the Prince to come would enter through. The prophecy was written in 600 B.C. Yet the Porch Gate was built around 1500 A.D. The true author of the prophecy knew that Jerusalems Old East Gate would survive, and He also knew that some 1900 years latter a Porch Gate would be added to it. And He also knew that it would be the Porch Gate that would be sealed up.
3. The sealing of the East Gate is not a Christian prophecy, for it is spoken of in the Old Testament. The sealing of the East Gate, fulfilled the Jewish Prophecy. And the Moslems that sealed the Gate, did not believe in Old Testament prophecies. There is no way you can claim this is a self fulfilling prophecy. And I can say that, because the events that have brought us to this point, were outside of the control of true believers in the prophecy.
The Romans did not believe the prophecy, yet they left the Old Gate intact. The Moslems did not believe the Prophecy, yet they built the Porch Gate, and seal up the Porch Gate which help fulfill the prophecy. Then the Moslems twice tried to open the Gate and failed, which only fulfilled the Bible all the more. The Moslems are not out there working to prove the Bible correct. The only part of the prophecy that needs to be fulfilled is the Prince to come. And he could not come until the Jewish people first returned from a world wide exile and were in control of Jerusalem. And this has also happen, just as the Bible said it would.
The sealing of the East Gate is not a Christian prophecy, for it is spoken of in the Old Testament.
*Sigh* Which varies because Jews and Christians can't agree on who the messiah is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
The sealing of the East Gate, fulfilled the Jewish Prophecy. And the Moslems that sealed the Gate, did not believe in Old Testament prophecies.
You are only half reading my words Campbell. The reason Sumelia shut it wasn't because he believed in OT prophecies but rather to prove the Jews wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
There is no way you can claim this is a self fulfilling prophecy.
You must have missed it then because I did, the east gate prophecy is set up in a way where it can't be shown wrong regardless of whether the gate is open or closed.
-If it is closed, we get someone like you saying the prophecy has been fulfilled
-If it is open, we get someone like you saying the prophecy is going to be fulfilled.
What if the east gate is destroyed tomorrow? Well the old gate is still buried, what if that one is also destroyed? Well someone is going to say that "in the future" it will be there and the messiah will go through them. Don't you understand yet Campbell? Many people don't listen to these prophecies because you can never show them wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
And I can say that, because the events that have brought us to this point, were outside of the control of true believers in the prophecy.
The Romans did not believe the prophecy, yet they left the Old Gate intact. The Moslems did not believe the Prophecy, yet they built the Porch Gate, and seal up the Porch Gate which help fulfill the prophecy. Then the Moslems twice tried to open the Gate and failed, which only fulfilled the Bible all the more. The Moslems are not out there working to prove the Bible correct. The only part of the prophecy that needs to be fulfilled is the Prince to come. And he could not come until the Jewish people first returned from a world wide exile and were in control of Jerusalem. And this has also happen, just as the Bible said it would.
To quote AG: "Bah and Phooey". You are so obsessed in trying to convince people that this is more than just some self-fulfilled blather that you can't see why so many people don't take the prophecy seriously.
How do you know your religion is right? Well you don't but from my understanding you believe that your book hasn't been wrong yet therefore you reason it will never be. Am I right?
*Sigh* Which varies because Jews and Christians can't agree on who the messiah is.
You are only half reading my words Campbell. The reason Sumelia shut it wasn't because he believed in OT prophecies but rather to prove the Jews wrong.
You must have missed it then because I did, the east gate prophecy is set up in a way where it can't be shown wrong regardless of whether the gate is open or closed.
-If it is closed, we get someone like you saying the prophecy has been fulfilled
-If it is open, we get someone like you saying the prophecy is going to be fulfilled.
What if the east gate is destroyed tomorrow? Well the old gate is still buried, what if that one is also destroyed? Well someone is going to say that "in the future" it will be there and the messiah will go through them. Don't you understand yet Campbell? Many people don't listen to these prophecies because you can never show them wrong.
To quote AG: "Bah and Phooey". You are so obsessed in trying to convince people that this is more than just some self-fulfilled blather that you can't see why so many people don't take the prophecy seriously.
How do you know your religion is right? Well you don't but from my understanding you believe that your book hasn't been wrong yet therefore you reason it will never be. Am I right?
Who the messiah is at this point has little to do with the fulfillment of the East Gate prophecy up to this date. Yet, according to the Old Testament, when the messiah does appear, the Jews will be very upset when they see who He is. As stated in Zec. chapter 12.
And I agree with you, Sumelia shut the Gate to prove the Jews wrong, but in doing so, he proved the Bible right, and fulfilled the prophecy.
The East Gate prophecy is set up in such a way, so that there is only (one way) for it to be fulfilled correctly. If the Gate were to be destroyed, then the truth of the Bible would fall into serious question. If the Gate was opened, and people were allowed to walk through it, the prophecy would be wrong. Because according to the prophecy, the Gate can (only) be opened by the Prince to come, and (only He) will be allowed to walk through it. The Old Gate (alone) cannot fulfill the prophecy, because it is the Porch Gate that was to be sealed, and (only the Porch Gate) will be opened by the Prince to come. The prophecy would be shown wrong if events would physical allow the opening or removing of the Porch Gate. Yet, historically when such events were about to happen, fate took a strange twist, and prevent that from happening.
Most people no nothing of the Bibles prophecies, and that is why they do not consider them. Yet, Christians in the past who have stated that the prophecies of the Bible would come to pass have been proven right.
In 1866 an English Bible scholar by the name of James Grant stated.
"The personal coming of Christ, to establish His millennial reign on earth, will not take place until the Jews are restored to their own land, and the enemies of Christ and the Jews have gathered together their armies from all parts of the world, and have commenced the siege of Jerusalem... now the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the mustering and marshalling of these mighty armies, with a view to capture Jerusalem, must requrie a consideral time yet.''
In 1864, Dr. John Cumming wrote. ''The predictions of their restoration are in words as definite only not yet fulfilled. As a nation they were cut off and dispersed, and it is as a nation that they shall be gathered and restored.
The Christians of the past believed the Bible, and even though they did not live to see the prophecies fulfillment. Yet, time has shown us that their belief in those prophecies were correct. And for me, if you have a Book that keeps proving itself through out time to be a Book that speaks the truth in detail, well, I would be hard pressed to ignore its truth today.
And yes, because the prophecies of the Bible have been correct, that is one of the reasons I believe it. Yet, that is not the only reason. I have had some real encounters with God, and it is because of that, I am so driven today.
Who the messiah is at this point has little to do with the fulfillment of the East Gate prophecy up to this date. Yet, according to the Old Testament, when the messiah does appear, the Jews will be very upset when they see who He is. As stated in Zec. chapter 12.
And I agree with you, Sumelia shut the Gate to prove the Jews wrong, but in doing so, he proved the Bible right, and fulfilled the prophecy.
The East Gate prophecy is set up in such a way, so that there is only (one way) for it to be fulfilled correctly. If the Gate were to be destroyed, then the truth of the Bible would fall into serious question. If the Gate was opened, and people were allowed to walk through it, the prophecy would be wrong. Because according to the prophecy, the Gate can (only) be opened by the Prince to come, and (only He) will be allowed to walk through it. The Old Gate (alone) cannot fulfill the prophecy, because it is the Porch Gate that was to be sealed, and (only the Porch Gate) will be opened by the Prince to come. The prophecy would be shown wrong if events would physical allow the opening or removing of the Porch Gate. Yet, historically when such events were about to happen, fate took a strange twist, and prevent that from happening.
Most people no nothing of the Bibles prophecies, and that is why they do not consider them. Yet, Christians in the past who have stated that the prophecies of the Bible would come to pass have been proven right.
In 1866 an English Bible scholar by the name of James Grant stated.
"The personal coming of Christ, to establish His millennial reign on earth, will not take place until the Jews are restored to their own land, and the enemies of Christ and the Jews have gathered together their armies from all parts of the world, and have commenced the siege of Jerusalem... now the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the mustering and marshalling of these mighty armies, with a view to capture Jerusalem, must requrie a consideral time yet.''
In 1864, Dr. John Cumming wrote. ''The predictions of their restoration are in words as definite only not yet fulfilled. As a nation they were cut off and dispersed, and it is as a nation that they shall be gathered and restored.
The Christians of the past believed the Bible, and even though they did not live to see the prophecies fulfillment. Yet, time has shown us that their belief in those prophecies were correct.
Yawn, you are still hijacking the thread. At least you admit the stuff about Sumelia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
And for me, if you have a Book that keeps proving itself through out time to be a Book that speaks the truth in detail, well, I would be hard pressed to ignore its truth today.
And yes, because the prophecies of the Bible have been correct, that is one of the reasons I believe it. Yet, that is not the only reason. I have had some real encounters with God, and it is because of that, I am so driven today.
And this is what this thread is all about. Your experiences, your beliefs and your faith make you confident that what you believe is right in the same way that the fulfilled prophecies in the Koran, the experiences with Allah and faith in Islam make a muslim confident in their beliefs.
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