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Don't be mad at me I chopped it all up, Mystic.(It's how my mind breaks it down.)
Anyone that wants to know God personally, rather than from words from 'olden times'- (meaning
from innocent interpretations of primitive minds), will know our Father God,
Creator and Sustainer, ever present Spirit, would never want blood shed to be appeased;
it was the mistaken, crazy belief ingrained into early Man's psyche for centuries, tho!
Another take re Jesus is:
Jesus loved us so much, to break humans from many delusional nonsensical concepts -
he finally helped us break this idea that we were blocked from Heaven and to show us this place is not what it seems: See, folks, -you can walk on water, -you can heal the blind, -you can change matter into something else... why, -you can even come alive again after the illusion of death... And I will shed blood according to your, limiting, ingrained concepts, once and for all, so you will open to the fact that you were always -beloved of our Father, -there was never any anger, and -a heavenly, eternal, present Kingdom has always been available to you; breaking the chains of your nutty ideas, to -be free and happy as you were meant to be!!!!
lol, IKR. Its my mechanical engineering background I guess. I see everything as variation on simple machines and chemistry. Toss in some physics and see information and energy transfers through simple machines and chemistry.
hill of beans here tho.
this is a politically motivated sub form using religion and spirituality to effect a political change. site that doesn't care about engineering a better belief. when discussing "god claims". They are out to recruit and insert their beliefs. Sometime I wish the united states was like the tenth best country. then we wouldn't be targeted by these people and we could get on with the business of helping people form rational belief systems.
One thing I like about you. You have your war on Christianity but you keep your belief about god and what god is or is not separate from that. when a person's primary goal is to stop religion and stop Christianity they often have to use tactics that leave out some basic facts when discussing "god claims". You don't do that.
don't buy into "whats it matter, we are after the same thing" they use religion as a weapon as surely as the theist do. something more is the most rational position to take. the science supports it and thats that.
"intellect" is the question. Its not even if it there or not. It is there Parts of the universe are self aware. Thats just a fact. It really is about "how much of the universe is thinking."
to repeat ... the best base line fact we have is "Parts of the universe are self aware". but we need to talk about how much. I think its less than you do. But I can make a case for the whole thing also. I just lean on the "Lesser" side.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 07-17-2020 at 08:53 AM..
You would be rightly offended if a judge in a court of law simply said to a lawbreaker, “society forgives youâ€. No, our laws require justice. Then, society can forgive.
Unfortunately, a lot of people, including a lot of christians, mistake punishment for justice.
Unfortunately, a lot of people, including a lot of christians, mistake punishment for justice.
Vengeance is the more typical human concept of justice. What makes no sense is why "reaping EXACTLY what we sow" doesn't qualify as a just consequence. What is the fascination for the overkill of an eternal consequence least of all torment????
Vengeance is the more typical human concept of justice. What makes no sense is why "reaping EXACTLY what we sow" doesn't qualify as a just consequence. What is the fascination for the overkill of an eternal consequence least of all torment????
You're right! Vengeance is a better term than simply punishment. I even saw it in education with teachers who seemed to think that vengeance was more important than solving a problem.
I'll try to keep this brief, and in my own words.
In times past, the Jewish high priest would offer a sacrifice ( usaully a spotless lamb ) for the expiation of the sins. It was believed that God required a blood sacrifice to even things out so to speak, and this sacrifice would take place periodically.
(You may remember the passover story with the blood placed on the doors of the jews.)
Very simply, Jesus is the final perfect sacrifice. That is why sometimes He is referred to as " The Lamb of God "
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
In addition to what has been shared, to me to sin is to miss the mark and according to God we have all missed the mark. We may believe that we are good persons but we all fall short in God's eyes. We were born into a death state. We were all born to be sinners and the result of that sin is death. It is because of death (due to Adam's actions) that we sin and it is into death we remain until Jesus breaks the bonds of death, which He did when He died on the cross and rose from the grave. Death no longer has dominion, power over us because Jesus ultimately annulled its power. Jesus died for our sins meaning that we no longer have to be slaves to sin, lost, perishing, without hope, having no relationship with God, but can become overcomers in this age and in the age to come. God revealed His heart when Jesus went to the cross and it shows how much He loves us. God bless.
Perhaps all these things "Jesus is the perfect sacrifice" "sin is missing the mark" "god requires a blood sacrifice" "we inherited Adam's sin" and on and on are just accoutrements for a particular faith just as all other faiths have their own accoutrements that prop them up.
From a practical point a God as advanced in intelligence as the Christian god would not have needed something as primitive as a blood sacrifice to appease its wrath. This is a prime tenant of many primitive civilizations. The Aztecs and Mayans routinely sacrificed humans to their gods to appease their gods' wrath. Can Christians not see that these religions were doing the same thing centuries before the Jews started sacrificing their goats to appease Yahweh's wrath? I mean a 2-year-old can see the connection.
Perhaps there isn't any such thing as sin and missing the mark and having to appease God's wrath. Perhaps these are all just outgrowths of any kind of religion that endures over time. Perhaps in this life we don't sin, we just make bad judgement choices and we suffer the consequences of some bad decisions i.e. a boy and girl have unprotected sex and they get STD's. Another couple have protected sex and they have a good time. No sin, no consequences, no God to cower in front of terrified He's going to strike them dead if they don't make some kind of animal sacrifice to them.
It's all so ...unnecessary.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-17-2020 at 09:01 PM..
Unfortunately, a lot of people, including a lot of christians, mistake punishment for justice.
Yes. I agree.
There is even more. Punishment might fullfill 3 functions:
- to be a easy-to-remember reminder, you will get what you deserve - to the delinquent.
- A public statement: ill and bad doing will be punished severely, for the folk: mind that!
- to satisfy the victim
To me it seems none of the functions above will work by the crucification.
It is very easy to understand: no state would tell the criminal courts to look always for a substitute delinquent, an other scapegoat to punish. It won't work. Someone who has bad intentions just don't mind an other one hurt by his doings, neither directly nor by the rulings of a court.
And "justice", what' s that? Justice in the sense of equal punishment for everybody, or in the sense of what someone deserves according to the act? Or should the personal history of someone count?
And more astonishing: Mercy is simply: to let justice go!
So according to the satisfaction theory you have a God-son who does all to satisfy his merciless God-father with a non-functioning sacrifice (therefore pure revenge). But someone able to sacrifice all for others won't be merciless. There is no explanation with sense anymore.
One of the foundation beliefs in the Christian religion is that when Jesus was crucified and died on the cross that he died for our sins. For those of you who know me, you know I'm not asking that in some sarcastic manner, I just honestly have never understood what that even means. First of all, Christians also believe that Jesus arose from the dead and that he's living right now so he really isn't really dead afterall. So here's a few questions about this situation. If Jesus hadn't died for our sins how would that have changed the circumstances of the lives of every human being? What exactly does it mean when Christians say he died for our sins? Are you saying that even though Jesus didn't commit the sins committed by billions of human beings that it erased their bad behavior and somehow changed the fundamental situation they would be facing and gave them an opportunity for eternal life which they otherwise would not have had? I've really never heard anyone explain this whole scenario in simple, easy to understand language that actually makes sense and yet this is one of the core principles of the Christian religion. Can anyway explain this in layman's terms without quoting the Bible and simply lay out their thoughts in an easy to understand manner?
. Some think Jesus death covers all sin, but it does not. It covers repented sin( the stopping of the doing of the sin) Yet all still did things against Gods will. No one would have to die if Jesus covered all sin. All die, paying the wages of sin themselves. But-- At Har-mageddon. Jesus will protect his on earth, and these may never taste death. The part of the little flock going to heaven during the tribulation will never taste death. Jesus covered that. Otherwise -ALL- up to this point have paid the wages of sin= death who have lived and died.
There is even more. Punishment might fullfill 3 functions:
- to be a easy-to-remember reminder, you will get what you deserve - to the delinquent.
- A public statement: ill and bad doing will be punished severely, for the folk: mind that!
- to satisfy the victim
To me it seems none of the functions above will work by the crucification.
It is very easy to understand: no state would tell the criminal courts to look always for a substitute delinquent, an other scapegoat to punish. It won't work. Someone who has bad intentions just don't mind an other one hurt by his doings, neither directly nor by the rulings of a court.
And "justice", what' s that? Justice in the sense of equal punishment for everybody, or in the sense of what someone deserves according to the act? Or should the personal history of someone count?
And more astonishing: Mercy is simply: to let justice go!
So according to the satisfaction theory you have a God-son who does all to satisfy his merciless God-father with a non-functioning sacrifice (therefore pure revenge). But someone able to sacrifice all for others won't be merciless. There is no explanation with sense anymore.
discipline to teach.
"justice" is being considerate of the next innocent victim.
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