Children of god confusion

[esselcue]

OR...maybe the time will come when you, simdakop, find out you have been believing in error. It doesn't matter to me what you believe...but please do not threaten me with your beliefs

[forkpower]

I'm with esseclue on this one, i dont care what you believe, but please do not think that every one will "find their way" to having the same beliefs as you, and dont tell them the time will come when they will believe. i dont force my views and beliefs on you, it would be nice if you did the same.

[mams1559]

Originally Posted by ShepsMom

In Christian religion, Jesus being "the only"? son of god. What about Adam? Wouldn't he be considered a very first son and Eve would be his daughter? As it stand now, god punished A&E, and he sacrificed life of his 3rd child for the sins of the other 2. Now, we humans are sinners?
Why crucifixion of Jesus of such importance, while casting A&E from heavens is not, why would you believe in Jesus and not Adam and Eve?
What is the difference? Both are children of god, but yet only one is the "true" son?

Probably a silly question, but i thought about it, hence it's here now.

Not a silly question at all. You asked for the Christian perspective, so I'll try to provide my understanding as best I can...


Adam and Eve were created humans who worshipped and followed God. Jesus is not a created being. Jesus is God in human form, he is devine. Jesus is eternal -- always has existed and always will exist. Jesus is a part of the triune godhead. Adam and Eve are not part of the godhead and they were not devine. They were not eternal, as they did have a beginning.

Adam and Eve are children of God the same sense as believers today can be called the children of God. We're created by God. Jesus is the "only begotten" son of God in the sense that he is God directly manifest in human form. He was not created ... he is the creator.

Adam & Eve, God's creation, willfully disobeyed God's command, which caused sin and death to enter all of God's creation. Through this act humans now have a propensity to sin. Humans do what they want, what they think is right, regardless of what God says about the subject. This is what separates humans from God ... doing our will instead of his. So Adam & Eve's fall is of great significance, because it explains why this world is so full of death and sin. It's just not worthy of worship.

This sin results in death which can result in eternal separation from God. To reconcile his creation to himself, Jesus stepped into time to offer himself as the perfect sacrifice. Jesus knew no sin. Jesus was perfect. He took on all the sins of the world from all time, to be the sacrifice God required to reconcile his creation to himself. Humans could not and can not do it on their own. Therefore, Jesus did it for us. Jesus, being fully human, died and, being fully God, rose again on the third day to fullfil the requirements demanded by God we humans ourselves could not. By doing this, Jesus made it possible for God's creation to be reconciled to its creator. He paid the ultimate price so those who believe in Him can have eternal life with their Creator. This is worthy of worship.

[a slave of Allah]

109. On the Day when Allâh will gather the Messengers together and say to them: "What was the response you received (from men to your teaching)? They will say: "We have no knowledge, verily, only You are the All­ Knower of all that is hidden (or unseen, etc.)."

110. (Remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rûh­ul­Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle[] and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, Al­Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' "

111. And when I (Allâh) put in the hearts of Al-Hawârîeen (the disciples) [of 'Iesa (Jesus)] to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are Muslims."

112. (Remember) when Al-Hawârîûn (the disciples) said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?" 'Iesa (Jesus) said: "Fear Allâh, if you are indeed believers."

113. They said: "We wish to eat thereof and to be stronger in Faith, and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses."

114. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Allâh, our Lord! Send us from heaven a table spread (with food) that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a festival and a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers."

115. Allâh said: "I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a torment such as I have not inflicted on anyone among (all) the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns)."

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All ­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All ­Mighty, the All ­Wise."

119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things. [translation of the meaning of The Glorious Quran, surat: Almaedah]

[MontanaGuy]

Mams wrote:

Adam & Eve, God's creation, willfully disobeyed God's command, which caused sin and death to enter all of God's creation. Through this act humans now have a propensity to sin. Humans do what they want, what they think is right, regardless of what God says about the subject. This is what separates humans from God ... doing our will instead of his. So Adam & Eve's fall is of great significance, because it explains why this world is so full of death and sin. It's just not worthy of worship.

Mams, my friend, how are you? You haven't been posting much lately. As usual I have to ask you a question from the atheist perspective. The Bible seems to suggest that Adam and Eve were actually set up in a kind of Biblical sting operation. Ok, God does the magic trick and makes Adam out of dust and then borrows one of Adam's ribs to create his sidekick Eve but then he puts them into an environment in which a talking snake tricks them into sinning which for some unexplained reason causes the entire human race to be changed into some other category of beings in which sin and death now reign. Hey, thanks Adam and Eve for screwing up our entire existence even though we didn't even do anything!
I realize I'm not worthy of worship, in fact I'd be rather embarrassed if someone started worshipping me, it's just that I really can't comprehend any religious concept that I've ever encountered. The explanations of any religion just seem very strange to me. Anyway, it's good to see you on the forum again and I wish you well.

[mams1559]

Hey, MG, it's good to be seen. I've been lying low for a while around R&P.

MontanaGuy said:

The Bible seems to suggest that Adam and Eve were actually set up in a kind of Biblical sting operation. Ok, God does the magic trick and makes Adam out of dust and then borrows one of Adam's ribs to create his sidekick Eve but then he puts them into an environment in which a talking snake tricks them into sinning which for some unexplained reason causes the entire human race to be changed into some other category of beings in which sin and death now reign.

I understand where you can see what you stated above. However, upon closer examination, it was not a sting operation. It was a matter of will and of faith. Yes, God performed a miracle <i.e. magic trick> and created Adam from the dust and Eve from Adam's rib. In creating us, he gave us a mind to think on our own and a will to act on our thoughts. I believe this to be the "image" he created us in as a reflection of himself.

I don't believe it was a sting operation or a catch 22. It seems that way because of God's foreknowledge... he knew it was going to happen, which is why it's stated Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. But just because God knew what was going to happen, didn't mean he set humans up to take the fall. We still had a choice... God just knew in advance which choice would be made.

It's not like God set them in the Garden and waited around the corner for the moment to jump out and say "gotcha!". God made clear the rules from the beginning. He told A & E what could and could not be eaten. It wasn't cryptic or fuzzy, it was plainly clear. Granted, Eve was "decieved" and passed the blame onto the talking serpent. However, Adam went in and willfully chose to join his wife instead of obeying God. He took his faith off of God to trust God would make things right and put his faith in himself instead. It was this willful action that brought about the condemnation of God <aka the curse>. It was through Adam sin and death entered paradise (not Eve), which is why it is through the last Adam (Christ) that sin and death are conquered.

I also don't believe it's for any "unexplained reason" that we've inherited a propensity for sin. Upon eating the forbidden fruit, their eyes were opened... they became aware of their nakedness and were ashamed, whereas before they were not. This awareness (not only of being naked, but in a broader sense) is what has snowballed into the enormous amount of sin in this world. It began with disobeying a simple command, grew to include deceit, lying, stealing, murder and the rest. The prior generations' actions accumulate through time.

I also don't go around blaming everything on Adam and Eve, either. Lord knows each person, of their own volition, has sinned. Because there is a tendency toward sin doesn't mean we have to act on it, but we of course do. God knew it would be this way, which is why Jesus came to deliver us from ourselves. Nothing we can or could ever do could make things right... it's only through the acceptance of the gift of salvation through Jesus in which we are reconciled to our creator.

My, it has been a while since I posted... it all came spilling out at once. I hope explaining my understanding gives you some clarification.

[AONE]

Jesus told you how to pray and in that he told you the answer. Our Father... there is no separation in this it isn't his father, it is our. we all have the same potential and that was the message of the Christ. love one another. This was his message. kindness and compassion to all. Point to the one place God isn't. Everything is God... including you, I and Christ... the difference is he knew it and we are learning it.
I and my father are one, but my father is greater than I. We are like the water in the ocean, We hold the same qualities but yet it is so much greater than we are. Thick back to the Old Testament.. when Moses asked God who he was and the response.. "I am" there is much to understand in that.
From time to time we are blessed to see and experience a divine being, one that knows their divinty. They come to show us there is more than meets te eye and that were are not alone and can also know divinity.

[Terryj]

The story of Adam and Eve is nothing but rehashed beliefs left over from the Sumarians, in their text (which predates the bible by about 1200 years) they also refer to a creation story. This story is almost the word for word as to what is in Genesis.
If one validates Jesus due to virgin birth, then how much greater is Adam, for he had neither a father or a mother. (in human terms)

It all come down to what you choose to believe in, this doesn't make you right or wrong, it just means that you have chosen what path you will walk. Once you have made a choice, then it's yours, but to demonize another of their path in which they have chosen because of your belief is hypocrisy.
One thing you can be sure of, as we gain greater understanding then beliefs change. It isn't up to another to validate what you choose to believe in, this is a walk that only you can make, you walk in your truth.