As to not hijak...I am posting a new thread on this (faith, evolution)

[SuSuSushi]

Originally Posted by JohnJLethal

There is nothing wrong with enjoying sex outside of the biblical standards you would like to push on us.

Damn straight!

[JohnJLethal]

Originally Posted by SuSuSushi

Damn straight!

Amen brother.

[brianrees]

Originally Posted by elizabeth7

Brian, you have made some excellent points and as the saying goes 'I see where you are coming from'.

Recognition for my genius at last!

...But I am also afraid to walk the streets at night in certain parts of the city. So being a victim of homophobia is not to have a monopoly on fear for one's safety... You could still have your brains bashed in. The feral youths that prowl the highways and byways would still be there.

Slight difference there, Elizabeth, in that some youths go out specifically to '***** bash' - I ought to know, having been the victim more than once. (it might even have been your hospital I was taken to).

If London became like Greece at the height of its near compulsory homosexual way of life...... etc.

Please ask your friend 'freedom' never to set foot in ancient Greece, then - he's hung up enough as it is on the gay thing.

Now, back to the office. I think I have had a brainwave.

Steady, girl - you don't want to have too many of those, how do you think I lost belief?

I have worked alongside a few people .... who were promiscuous ... in their sexual lives. I knew this and obviously took a dim view of it.

I Know, I have met several fornicators myself - how can they? NO SHAME...

BUT, we were friends and colleagues who got along well together. Off to the canteen for lunch, back to the ward, helping and supporting each other. In short, we were all friends. Which is how I would be with you. Can you see the comparison? I treated them normally because it never occurred to me to be any other way. I was not deigning to be gracious.

Not being facetious, Elizabeth, but isn't that exactly what Jesus did?. I seem to remember even He didn't escape criticism for the low company he sometimes kept.

And in my scenario, you approach me and ask my opinion.. I might guess, ....

You wouldn't have to guess, I normally wear a pink frock and a cheap blonde wig just in case someone thinks I'm straight, despite my manly stubble.

...it would register with my brain cell, and then it would be business as usual. I might even go out and fetch you a ploughman's lunch if you wanted it and were feeling a bit peckish.

Don't do yourself down - I know for a fact that you have more in your head than that single brain cell... (sorry that's me being silly again - too much wine with my lunch, I guess).

I cannot change who I am but it has never got in the way with my fellow man and woman. I like to get on with everyone where it's possible. And I know it would be possible with you.

Seriously though -

we can all change who we are, particularly if it's brought home to us that the way we are is upsetting to others, as may be the case here. You may not have NOTICED any discomfort in your friends, but having been in this exact situation countless times I can tell you that one can always pick up on a whiff of underlying disapproval - if it's there - it is unmistakable.

So what?... you might say - "as far as I'm concerned I'm just being my usual friendly self - I treat everyone the same"... but even so, I would be wary of calling you my true friend (on a deeper level) because I would want to rely on your support through thick and thin, and that's where the the problem lies.

Say I invited you to my home for supper, along with your hubby. Suppose I had a live-in-boyfriend that I loved as much as you love your man. Then your subliminal Christian antagonism to my choice of lifestyle would jar with me on some level, and I wouldn't enjoy your company as much as I would like to. And if I were to be hurt in love, or even bereaved - would you have a genuine empathy, or would you still think 'well, it was only a gay relationship?

This goes much deeper than say, a basic political disagreement - we choose our political affiliations, and can change as we go along if we want to.

Not so my orientation (and please don't believe any of that rubbish that says I can become straight if I want to badly enough) - if I sense I'm not good enough for your god, as I am - it can throw my whole equilibrium out of kilter, just as it would yours if your friends secretly thought you needed to become someone different before they fully accepted you.

Just a little bit out Brian, I am a Libran. (Peace, harmony etc.)

I know a Scorpio woman when I see one, Liz, (both sisters, mother, both sisters-in-law, too many friends to count -- ex-wife -- (OK, that's a fib) - so why don't you be honest with me here? Is your mum really sure?

I'm going to Evensong later and hope to meet up with a lovely chap I know.
The hymns are beautifully uplifting, and he sings nearly as well as I do!

No comment (except, of course, to ask: Is Church really the best place for clandestine assignations? please tell me not to worry).

Brian.

[elizabeth7]

Originally Posted by JohnJLethal

There is nothing wrong with enjoying sex outside of the biblical standards you would like to push on us.

I ain't pushing anything on you John. You do quite a bit of shoving yourself.

[JohnJLethal]

Originally Posted by elizabeth7

I ain't pushing anything on you John. You do quite a bit of shoving yourself.

Your biblical standards passes judgment on us in the realm of sex. You have made statements to SuSu about sex outside of marriage, and to Brian about homosexuality.

We are just defending ourselves.

[elizabeth7]

Originally Posted by JohnJLethal

Your biblical standards passes judgment on us in the realm of sex. You have made statements to SuSu about sex outside of marriage, and to Brian about homosexuality.

We are just defending ourselves.

Correction, I had to defend myself against SuSu. I did not engage him/her in 'conversation'. She? He had a mocking tone which I don't much appreciate. Not very pleasant. I should think we all adhere to some standards where sex is concerned. We are not animals in the farmyard, are we? As for Brian, I think he can look after himself, don't you?

[JohnJLethal]

Originally Posted by elizabeth7

Correction, I had to defend myself against SuSu. I did not engage him/her in 'conversation'. She? He had a mocking tone which I don't much appreciate. Not very pleasant. I should think we all adhere to some standards where sex is concerned. We are not animals in the farmyard, are we? As for Brian, I think he can look after himself, don't you?

I don't stand on the sidelines when people are being persecuted because of religious oppression. Too many folks did that in California, and that is how a religious majority voted to remove equal rights for homosexuals.

It's nice that you think we should adhere to some standards where sex is concerned, but that's really just your religious opinion. We don't share your religion, and don't care for interference or restriction of our rights due to someone else's religion.

[elizabeth7]

Originally Posted by JohnJLethal

I don't stand on the sidelines when people are being persecuted because of religious oppression. Too many folks did that in California, and that is how a religious majority voted to remove equal rights for homosexuals.

It's nice that you think we should adhere to some standards where sex is concerned, but that's really just your religious opinion. We don't share your religion, and don't care for interference or restriction of our rights due to someone else's religion.

What it is with you, John? I was in here minding my own business and having a pleasant discussion with Brian. What you or Su do is of supreme unimportance to me. I am, and have been, no saint but try to live by some moral standards. Oh what a horrible word...moral. Run for the hills!

[JohnJLethal]

Originally Posted by elizabeth7

What it is with you, John? I was in here minding my own business and having a pleasant discussion with Brian. What you or Su do is of supreme unimportance to me. I am, and have been, no saint but try to live by some moral standards. Oh what a horrible word...moral. Run for the hills!

Discussions in threads are assumed to be public debates. Otherwise you could PM Brian if you want to have a private conversation.

My moral standards are just fine thanks. It's statements like those you make that give you that "Holy Roller", condescending air. You make it seem like we are devoid of morality, when in fact most of us are not Christians because of morality, by way of the Biblical examples I have listed in the OP.

[SuSuSushi]

Originally Posted by elizabeth7

What it is with you, John? I was in here minding my own business and having a pleasant discussion with Brian. What you or Su do is of supreme unimportance to me. I am, and have been, no saint but try to live by some moral standards. Oh what a horrible word...moral. Run for the hills!

The implication here being of course that the rest of us don't have any morals and wouldn't live by them even if we did.

Guess what, I do what's "right" simply because it's right. No other reason than that. If you do "right" because your god or your messiah or your holy book or your church or your religion or your pastor tells you to do so, who then is on a higher "moral" plane of existence? I submit that it's those of us who do it for no reason other than it's the right thing to do, and not because someone tells us to do it and not because we fear any divine retribution if we don't.

If your god exists, he created sex and sexual pleasure and orgasms (GASP!) to be enjoyed. Sorry for you that you can't see that; it must really suck.