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It has slowly dawned on me, having joined in a few battles on the Religion and Philosophy threads, that perhaps the atheists versus Christians (or other religious believers) shouldn't be arguing specific logical issues. To do so, I think, misses the point and clouds those issues. I think what I see happening here is more like the following:
C: My chickens put on red pants in their coup at night. I know it to be so because I know it to be so.
A: Oh yeah? Well you can't deny that my Ferrari actually goes 167 mph! First of all, the builders said it will, and secondly I've actually done it, with a stopwatch, so I have observed evidence!
C: No! The chickens need to wear the pants to keep warm, and it also wards off the coyotes!
A: How can you deny my car's top speed?
C: You're an idiot! All chickens wear pants at night!
A: What a moron! So stuck in mediaeval thinking. My Ferrari's so much more modern. Move on, flea-brain!
Mod: You're both "outa here!"
And so on and so forth.
freedom, under the Noah's Ark thread, posted the following:
To some believers, God is able to transcend all physical contraints and structures.
Example: Jesus multiplied matter (fishes and loaves). Defied Gravity, Overcame death, caused fields of grain to ripen off season, healed those that could not naturally be healed, and transported himself through walls and thin air without any other mode of transportation.
So when Scientific Physical laws as we understand them to be in our everyday lives, are ignored by the creator of all things, and those who wield His power, it doesn't really cause a believer any pause or dismay.
Therefore arguments formed under the constraints of Natural become cumbersome when we are dealing in Super-natural realms.
I find this quite refreshing as it clarifies and defines the dichotomy that exists in the otherwise rational thinking we all use, evangelicals or not, in our everyday lives. We're not even arguing apples and oranges, which are vaguely comparable. But rather we daily (or nightly in my case right now) war over chicken clothing versus automotive engineering if you get my metaphor.
Can we perhaps agree to allow each other the beliefs we want, need or desire, instead of trying to tear down each other's logic or lack thereof? Certainly I don't expect to convert a Christian to heathen atheism, nor can they ever expect me to change my mind and go over to their screw.... I mean... their unusual ideas.
Perhaps an alternative might be for each to present just how these beliefs benefit their cohort group? Do their philosophies actually promote a forward, positive outlook on life, each in its own way?
I think you've summed it up quite well. Fortunately, you avoided suggesting that the chicken take a ride in the Ferrari--which would undoubtedly have brought both fire and brimstone raining down upon you!
Or, "Why did the religious chicken cross the road when it knew perfectly well that the Ferrari was coming. At high speed no less? After all, it didn't need to fear death, given the Big Barnyard in the Sky."
Well, to start it off, I'll just briefly mention ("Did rflmn™ say "briefly", Madge? That'll be the day!") that, I confess, aetheism has pretty much functionally become my religion. Yep!
It has a set of standardized answers and concepts I've "evolved" through practise in asserting or battling Christian assaults to my pyschological castle.
I proselytize to others of like or alternate mind-sets.
I enjoy the fellowship of other like-minded individuals.
It is, however, "cost free"! Gotcha there, Christians, eh? Eh?
I firmly believe that it sets me free from clouded, staid and "contained" thinking.
I'm free to explore alternate concepts (one of the basic and key tenents of my formalized atheism).
It even leaves me free, potentially, to return to being a Christian, should evidence to my satisfaction ever appear. That's ever less likely, given 1) the history of typical evangelical "evidence"; 2) the mindset of the usual presenters ("freedom" and others like him as clear exceptions, BTW), and; 3) my age. I mean, we only have so much time to figure this all out, and I don't want to waste all of it pondering the imponderable universe!
So! I'm happy in my idiocy. How about you? cluck cluck roar roar
Chickens only wear blue pants and a Ferrari is not a car.
Thus you are both delusional and uninformed.
The only real(tm) car is a Ford Chrysler Chevy V8 and YES I own one - the chickens like riding along in the back seat.
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Ba-gok, bahhhh-gawwwwkkk!"
Dunno ...
