Can I ask a Mormon? (Mormons, America, church, atheism)
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Why do many Mormons still believe that the Native Americans are decedents from Israel even though DNA has proven otherwise?
I personally cannot understand how anyone can claim to know something is true based on no evidence. (This goes for all religions, but this thread is to address the specific questions about Mormon doctrine.)
I was posting on Ask a Mormon, but it became very clear that my questions weren't going to be answered there.
So what makes you think that a new thread is the answer?
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I have some questions. For example: Why is it moral for Joseph Smith to marry other mens' wives even if "spiritually"?
If there were no sexual relations involved, how was it immoral? These "spiritual" marriages were, in actuality, "sealings." They would have an eternal significance for women who were married to men who were not willing to make the kind of commitment required for an eternal bond to be in place.
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How do Mormons reconcile their belief with evidence that JS was not truthful? More specifically about the "Book of Abraham" papyrus? Here's a link:
I'll get back to you on this one. I have to watch the video and I don't have three minutes to waste right now.
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Why do many Mormons still believe that the Native Americans are decedents from Israel even though DNA has proven otherwise?
First of all, I know of hardly any Mormons who believe that all Native Americans are descendants of the Israelites. DNA has not proven anything conclusive at this point. It's a relatively new science, after all. Thirty years ago it was nowhere near as reliable as it is today. Thirty years from now, who knows what it will reveal. Since you're into links, here's one for you:
DNA and the Book of Mormon If this one is not sufficient to convince you that the jury is still out, I can provide others. However, you should know right up front that I will only continue to post link after link if I can tell by your comments that you're not really reading them.
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I personally cannot understand how anyone can claim to know something is true based on no evidence. (This goes for all religions, but this thread is to address the specific questions about Mormon doctrine.)
Please let us know your views.
I have plenty of evidence to support what I believe, but it is evidence, not proof. That's why I don't claim to "know" but to "believe."
So what makes you think that a new thread is the answer?
If there were no sexual relations involved, how was it immoral? These "spiritual" marriages were, in actuality, "sealings." They would have an eternal significance for women who were married to men who were not willing to make the kind of commitment required for an eternal bond to be in place.
So are you saying that when they go to the celestial kingdom and produce spirit babies with JS they do it without sex? Also Joseph Smith did marry some women with TBM husbands. How does he justify that?
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
First of all, I know of hardly any Mormons who believe that all Native Americans are descendants of the Israelites. DNA has not proven anything conclusive at this point. It's a relatively new science, after all. Thirty years ago it was nowhere near as reliable as it is today. Thirty years from now, who knows what it will reveal. Since you're into links, here's one for you:
DNA and the Book of Mormon If this one is not sufficient to convince you that the jury is still out, I can provide others. However, you should know right up front that I will only continue to post link after link if I can tell by your comments that you're not really reading them.
I have plenty of evidence to support what I believe, but it is evidence, not proof. That's why I don't claim to "know" but to "believe."
Well over 7500 Native Americans were tested and not a drop of Israeli DNA, so I think that is a pretty big sample group. Your argument is basically that they haven't found the DNA YET. Or should I say FAIR's argument. Their argument is based on casting any doubt and then declaring it a victory. There is always some doubt in science, you can't use that doubt to support unrealistic unprovable claims.
Just to let you know I have been all over the FAIR website and there is just as much evidence that the claims of JS were false. I don't want to hear quotes or links from apologist websites, I would like to hear YOUR opinion, you know, what you think. How can you justify your beliefs? Frankly those sites are not enough for me.
So are you saying that when they go to the celestial kingdom and produce spirit babies with JS they do it without sex?
Did I say that? Hmmm. It's odd that I would since I really haven't given it any thought.
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Also Joseph Smith did marry some women with TBM husbands. How does he justify that?
Beats me. I don't even know what a TBM husband is.
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Well over 7500 Native Americans were tested and not a drop of Israeli DNA, so I think that is a pretty big sample group.
You obviously didn't read the link. Either that or you missed the main point.
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Your argument is basically that they haven't found the DNA YET. Or should I say FAIR's argument. Their argument is based on casting any doubt and then declaring it a victory. There is always some doubt in science, you can't use that doubt to support unrealistic unprovable claims.
There was a time (a very long, long time actually) when dinosaur bones hadn't been found. That didn't mean they didn't exist. I don't see anybody at FAIR as "claiming victory." All the article I posted did was explain why our critics' claims of "victory" are unfounded. It did a good job of that. Too bad you dismissed it without giving it a chance.
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Just to let you know I have been all over the FAIR website and there is just as much evidence that the claims of JS were false. I don't want to hear quotes or links from apologist websites, I would like to hear YOUR opinion, you know, what you think.
I can give you my own opinion on a lot of topics. I'm not a geneticist or a biologist, though, and it would be pointless for me to try to pretend that I'm an expert in a field I'm not.
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How can you justify your beliefs? Frankly those sites are not enough for me.
How can I justify my beliefs to you? Clearly I can't. You want me to be able to provide you with proof that what I believe is true. I can't and I'm not going to try. Even if I could, you wouldn't be convinced. You'd find some reason to dismiss whatever I said. Maybe you'll have more luck with somebody else. Have a nice day.
Did I say that? Hmmm. It's odd that I would since I really haven't given it any thought.
Beats me. I don't even know what a TBM husband is.
You obviously didn't read the link.
There was a time (a very long, long time actually) when dinosaur bones hadn't been found. That didn't mean they didn't exist. I don't see anybody at FAIR as "claiming victory." All the article I posted did was explain why our critics' claims of "victory" are unfounded. It did a good job of that. Too bad you dismissed it without giving it a chance.
I can give you my own opinion on a lot of topics. I'm not a geneticist or a biologist, though, and it would be pointless for me to try to pretend that I'm an expert in a field I'm not.
How can I justify my beliefs to you? Clearly I can't. You want me to be able to provide you with proof that what I believe is true. I can't and I'm not going to try. Even if I could, you wouldn't be convinced. You'd find some reason to dismiss whatever I said. Maybe you'll have more luck with somebody else. Have a nice day.
Why did you post here if you didn't want to answer any questions? Are you a Mormon? TBM means true believing Mormon.
This is what I experienced on the other thread, when faced with tough questions everyone says they have no opinion because they are not an expert. Or they really don't want to address it because it doesn't matter to them. So is it just that you believe whatever a Mormon site tells you? Why don't Mormons have a more inquisitive spirit? I know you think it is wrong to question your beliefs, and I can understand why you would be scared. I used to be Catholic and doubting God is an ETERNAL SIN.
Everyone is qualified to give their opinion on this thread. I don't care if it's church approved.
Why did you post here if you didn't want to answer any questions? Are you a Mormon? TBM means true believing Mormon.
Oh, I see. And who coined that?
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This is what I experienced on the other thread, when faced with tough questions everyone says they have no opinion because they are not an expert. Or they really don't want to address it because it doesn't matter to them.
Hey, I'm sorry I'm not qualified to give you an expert opinion on DNA evidence. Would you prefer that I cut and paste an answer from somebody who is, pretend it's mine, and maybe get banned for plagiarism? Sorry, but I'd rather stick around. I'm always glad to answer questions on subjects I have some background in. Maybe you're one of those people who is an expert on everything. Or maybe you just think you are. I'm not and I'm willing to admit it. Okay?
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So is it just that you believe whatever a Mormon site tells you?
I don't base my faith on websites.
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Why don't Mormons have a more inquisitive spirit?
The fact that I believe something you don't believe doesn't mean that you've thought it through and I haven't.
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I know you think it is wrong to question your beliefs, and I can understand why you would be scared.
No offense, but you don't know what I think and you don't know what I feel. You don't know jack about me. Look, I'm a newbie here on this forum, but I've been through this whole routine literally thousands of times on other forums. It doesn't take me long to figure out when a conversation has hit a dead end. It took me two whole posts this time. Please feel free to reply, but I'm done.
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Everyone is qualified to give their opinion on this thread. I don't care if it's church approved.
Everyone is qualified to give their opinion on this thread. I don't care if it's church approved.
Okay. You can be certain my opinion's not church-approved, because I'm not LDS and can't imagine ever becoming even a Christian again. And mine is that someone who believes this:
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Originally Posted by BornOKThe1stTime
All religions are just as ridiculous. None are valid. I think we should criticize them all.
...is simply seeking to debunk religions, baiting members of those religions into discussion not to better understand how they think and feel, but to scoff at them for believing in any religion. One could look at it as proselytizing for atheism.
It is very illogical for any member of any religion to engage such a person at all, since all religions are by definition matters of faith: one either believes or does not, and nothing can be proven or disproven.
Okay. You can be certain my opinion's not church-approved, because I'm not LDS and can't imagine ever becoming even a Christian again. And mine is that someone who believes this:
...is simply seeking to debunk religions, baiting members of those religions into discussion not to better understand how they think and feel, but to scoff at them for believing in any religion. One could look at it as proselytizing for atheism.
I was simply stating my opinion on religions. I don't think that it is wrong to tell people what I believe when I am asking them to explain to me what they believe. That statement was also meant to let anyone know that I'm equally as critical of all religions, not just mormonism.
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It is very illogical for any member of any religion to engage such a person at all, since all religions are by definition matters of faith: one either believes or does not, and nothing can be proven or disproven.
Why is it that religion is off limits when it comes to any real questions or criticism? I am merely trying to gain some understanding of why people believe the things they do, and to get them to think about it from another point of view. There are many things that I don't understand about Mormon doctrine, so why is it rude to ask questions about them?
You say a person either believes or doesn't. It's not as simple as that. Surely you have reasons for not believing in Christianity. Why can't the reasons for believing be up for discussion?
If this thread is not for you and you are not interested in asking or answering any questions about mormonism, then have a nice day, and see you on a different forum.
Hey, I'm sorry I'm not qualified to give you an expert opinion on DNA evidence. Would you prefer that I cut and paste an answer from somebody who is, pretend it's mine, and maybe get banned for plagiarism? Sorry, but I'd rather stick around. I'm always glad to answer questions on subjects I have some background in. Maybe you're one of those people who is an expert on everything. Or maybe you just think you are. I'm not and I'm willing to admit it. Okay?
I don't base my faith on websites.
The fact that I believe something you don't believe doesn't mean that you've thought it through and I haven't.
No offense, but you don't know what I think and you don't know what I feel. You don't know jack about me. Look, I'm a newbie here on this forum, but I've been through this whole routine literally thousands of times on other forums. It doesn't take me long to figure out when a conversation has hit a dead end. It took me two whole posts this time. Please feel free to reply, but I'm done.
And you got mine.
Wow, I didn't want you to get so upset, I was merely asking your opinion. I don't need an expert opinion, as obviously I am not an expert. I do not have the Mormon point of view on these issues so I would like someone else's. I don't however want to read link after link, because I'd prefer someone's opinion be in their own words.
I don't claim to know you, but I do know what it is like to be in an authoritarian religion where doubt is seen as a sin. I was merely trying to relate as most of the Mormons I know are also scared to doubt their faith. If that doesn't apply to you I'm sorry.
I'm just curious to find out why faith wins out over doubt when there is insufficient evidence to believe. Have a nice day
Why is it that religion is off limits when it comes to any real questions or criticism? I am merely trying to gain some understanding of why people believe the things they do, and to get them to think about it from another point of view. There are many things that I don't understand about Mormon doctrine, so why is it rude to ask questions about them?
I didn't say it was rude to ask questions about them, so do not suggest I did. That is a tactic known as inventing statements to cause someone to waste time refuting things he or she never said.
Fact is, I don't believe what you say above. I think you are being disingenuous about your motivation. I don't think you are simply trying to gain some understanding. I think you just want to draw people out so you can criticize them for having any religious beliefs at all, just as you stated; that time I think you were being quite candid. Mormons make good targets for that sort of baiting because it's socially okay in even Christian circles to give them grief, because they're usually pretty patient and polite and articulate, and because most of them will willingly engage those who pose questions.
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