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This is a perfect example of how unbelievers go looking for contradictions or problems with the Bible instead of genuinely looking for answers - they come with a closed mind and heart. Those who want genuine answers will do thier homework and find answers. .
The part I bolded is not always true. I know of only a few (scratch that, one) other person who has had experiences similar to mine. I was "born again." I joined a pentacostal church. I went to the seminary. I learned Greek. I learned Latin. I learned Hebrew. I studied hard. I prayed hard. I sought after God as I beleived he sought after me. My heart was full of joy that my relationship with God brought to me.
Then, I began to notice things. Little things at first. Things like: Whether the Word of God is allegory, or fact, it must not contain any errors. There have certainly been enough "stories" on the planet for God to be able to make his point without error. So, I returned to the original texts. I found out that I could not return to the original texts. The original texts may never have existed. But if they had, they were changed so much by Esubias and the Council of Nicea that what we have now is untrustworthy, and has errors not just of transcription but of meaning. So, I said, "OK if mankind is so uncaring about the word of God as to lose it, then somewhere the word of God must exist, and it must be unique from all other 'words.' So I looked. I found Christ's miracles recorded in Vedic (Hindu) literature, which were written sometime between 1500 years and 500 years before Christ existed. I found the died, spent 3 days dead, went to hell, rose again resurection, was an exact copy of the Egyptian religion worship of Ra, Horus, and Isis. This one came complete with a madona (Isis). This religion pre-dated Christ's birth by thousands of years. Then I found out that the Romans were crazy-nuts about keeping records. No record of Christ's execution by the Romans was recorded. It wasn't lost--it just was never written down.
So, I said, "Well sometimes government clerks screw up. What about the murderer they let go, "Berabus." It seems that Berabus first name was "Jesus." This seemed highly cooincendintal, so I began a true search for Barabus, Beribus, or however his name should be spelled. There are at least six ways to spell his name. Again, no record of this guy. One thinker, I don't remember his name said, that "Barabus" was a misspelling of "Berabbis" which meant something like "holy, most exhalted, religious teacher" in Aramaic. I don't know Aramaic--so I couldn't comment.
So, there is no record of Jesus being crucified by the Romans. No record of Barabus ever existing. NONE. This was problematic to me. What should I do??? Well, the Jews murdered Christ--right? No. Wait. I learned that the Jewish method of capital punishment was stoning--not crucifiction. So, the Jews didn't do this--if it was done, it was done by the Romans.
Ah well, if the word of God was changed by men, then what can I beleive about the reports of spirits, demons, apparations...perhaps there is a way to find the truth there--oops--not. California Institute of Technology (skeptics society) has spent a lot of time researching this and each and every "event" has received a scientific explanation. They even have a million dollar prize if someone comes up with evidence from the spirit realm that they cannot explain! (better hurry, this offer has been on the table for a very long time, and your competition is trying to be first.)
So, then I decided to bury my head in the old testament. I started out with the ten commandments. Did you know that the words used to say, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors man-servant, nor his maid-servant" don't really say what I put into quote marks? The term "servant" is incorrectly translated. Correctly translated the word means "slave." Not just any kind of slave. Not a slave whose output is owned. But the kind of slave that was completly and totally owned--the owner could do as he pleased with this person.
So, since I can't covet someone's slave, that means it is ok to have slaves. ...the ten commandments says it's ok for me to actually own another human being as property? ...yes. it does.
Well, that analysis means that I, as just little me, have a higher moral plane--that I am more ethical than this god (notice: I changed the use of capitalization.) I cannot beleive that god (or God if you wish) is less ethical than I am.
So, I looked around. I saw tremendous pain and suffering. Darfur, Ethopia, Holocaust, Killing Fields, on and on...God, if he exists has a moral duty to guide people such that those things do not happen. Once again, God dropped the ball on his moral duty.
So, you see....not everyone comes to this research with a closed mind. On the contrary, I think a lot of Christians come to the defense of the bible without the basic knowledge of what they are talking about. Yet, since they have made a commitment, they handily ignore the contradictory evidence.
03-09-2009, 09:42 PM
2K5Gx2km
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley
The part I bolded is not always true. I know of only a few (scratch that, one) other person who has had experiences similar to mine. I was "born again." I joined a pentacostal church. I went to the seminary. I learned Greek. I learned Latin. I learned Hebrew. I studied hard. I prayed hard. I sought after God as I beleived he sought after me. My heart was full of joy that my relationship with God brought to me.
Then, I began to notice things. Little things at first. Things like: Whether the Word of God is allegory, or fact, it must not contain any errors. There have certainly been enough "stories" on the planet for God to be able to make his point without error. So, I returned to the original texts. I found out that I could not return to the original texts. The original texts may never have existed. But if they had, they were changed so much by Esubias and the Council of Nicea that what we have now is untrustworthy, and has errors not just of transcription but of meaning. So, I said, "OK if mankind is so uncaring about the word of God as to lose it, then somewhere the word of God must exist, and it must be unique from all other 'words.' So I looked. I found Christ's miracles recorded in Vedic (Hindu) literature, which were written sometime between 1500 years and 500 years before Christ existed. I found the died, spent 3 days dead, went to hell, rose again resurection, was an exact copy of the Egyptian religion worship of Ra, Horus, and Isis. This one came complete with a madona (Isis). This religion pre-dated Christ's birth by thousands of years. Then I found out that the Romans were crazy-nuts about keeping records. No record of Christ's execution by the Romans was recorded. It wasn't lost--it just was never written down.
So, I said, "Well sometimes government clerks screw up. What about the murderer they let go, "Berabus." It seems that Berabus first name was "Jesus." This seemed highly cooincendintal, so I began a true search for Barabus, Beribus, or however his name should be spelled. There are at least six ways to spell his name. Again, no record of this guy. One thinker, I don't remember his name said, that "Barabus" was a misspelling of "Berabbis" which meant something like "holy, most exhalted, religious teacher" in Aramaic. I don't know Aramaic--so I couldn't comment.
So, there is no record of Jesus being crucified by the Romans. No record of Barabus ever existing. NONE. This was problematic to me. What should I do??? Well, the Jews murdered Christ--right? No. Wait. I learned that the Jewish method of capital punishment was stoning--not crucifiction. So, the Jews didn't do this--if it was done, it was done by the Romans.
Ah well, if the word of God was changed by men, then what can I beleive about the reports of spirits, demons, apparations...perhaps there is a way to find the truth there--oops--not. California Institute of Technology (skeptics society) has spent a lot of time researching this and each and every "event" has received a scientific explanation. They even have a million dollar prize if someone comes up with evidence from the spirit realm that they cannot explain! (better hurry, this offer has been on the table for a very long time, and your competition is trying to be first.)
So, then I decided to bury my head in the old testament. I started out with the ten commandments. Did you know that the words used to say, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors man-servant, nor his maid-servant" don't really say what I put into quote marks? The term "servant" is incorrectly translated. Correctly translated the word means "slave." Not just any kind of slave. Not a slave whose output is owned. But the kind of slave that was completly and totally owned--the owner could do as he pleased with this person.
So, since I can't covet someone's slave, that means it is ok to have slaves. ...the ten commandments says it's ok for me to actually own another human being as property? ...yes. it does.
Well, that analysis means that I, as just little me, have a higher moral plane--that I am more ethical than this god (notice: I changed the use of capitalization.) I cannot beleive that god (or God if you wish) is less ethical than I am.
So, I looked around. I saw tremendous pain and suffering. Darfur, Ethopia, Holocaust, Killing Fields, on and on...God, if he exists has a moral duty to guide people such that those things do not happen. Once again, God dropped the ball on his moral duty.
So, you see....not everyone comes to this research with a closed mind. On the contrary, I think a lot of Christians come to the defense of the bible without the basic knowledge of what they are talking about. Yet, since they have made a commitment, they handily ignore the contradictory evidence.
1) Why must there be no errors in the Bible? And what do you mean by errors? If you are talking about transcription errors - so what - we can understand what was intended. Do you mean philisophical errors? That can be subjective. Moral errors? That is subjective of the person claiming such things. Or scientific errors? The Bible was not trying to be scientific - it used everday language to express Gods truths - it was mainly polemic against the false gods by setting YHWH as sole creator and the only one true God. With that said i have yet to see anything that would contradict science. And we do have mss prior to Nicea.
2) Please quote primary sources for your Ra, Horus, Isis theory. I would venture you have none because there is none.
3) Rome crucified 1000's of people whom they thought were mere nusances and criminals - why would they record this crucifiction with such an outlook? Furthermore, your argument is one from silence and many such arguments have been silenced with further discoveries.
4) The slave issue needs to be put in context - when people hear this today they think of the African slave trade - that is not what was going on in the laws pertaining to slaves. There were laws on how to treat slaves, there were voluntary slaves for debt purposes, there were slaves from warfare, and from which you could buy a slave. Nowhere does it say as you said 'the owner could do as he pleased with this person.' That was just not the case. Kidnapping was forbidden, and many slaves were allowed to be bought back and released in either 7, 14, and 21 yr periods. This is far from the unethical and unjust treatment that so many inovke when they throw that term around. It is just not doing the Bible justice. Furhtermore, we enslave people today under 'justice' by imprisoning them for thier crimes - many slaves were of this sort - debtors, criminals, or results of war. And even then they were told to treat them in a manner totally inconsistant with what our modern minds know about with the African slave trade.
5) God, if he exists has a moral duty to guide people such that those things do not happen. I see now that your are God and you have now brought him into jugdment. I would think this an epistimological problem considering you would not think yourself perfect, omniscience, or Creator. How would you know what is objectivly moral outside Gods existence? This is just a case of 'I don't like what you have done God.' On one hand you don't believe in absolute morals and yet you sit in condemnation of God with your arbitray standards. .
6) Contradictory - to what? Your world view? Is not that very subjective. To itself (Bible)? OK were? To the other ancient mss? Once again subjective. Why does secular history get a pass on truth checking - as if those who wrote their history could not have lied or been wrong as well. Oh and this has been shown to be the case in some instances. We always use them as a measuring stick for the Bible why not the otherway around?
Anywho - that is just off the top of my head. I hope your trust in the Lord comes back to the simplicity that is in Christ. When I trusted Christ it was not based on apologetics, and I do not think it should be, I heard the gospel and knew in my soul that it was truth - I could not explain it to you and I would not want to - It just resonates withn me. I was not emotional, a drug addict or anything like that, I just trusted. Reasonable answers, of course not every answer can or will be found - why should it for one to believe - came later. My faith has only strengthened. The same Sun that hardens the wax melts the clay. Mystery upon mysteries.
And the bible says killing a woman is not the same as killing a man. The bible's full of inequality. Which makes it a poor guide for which to seek answers to social conundrums. The bible has many instances where God right out encourages vile and cruel slaughters of the unborn.
All of that said, I can not support elective abortions.
When reading that entired chapter and the following it is amazing that people accept the bible. they own slaves and say you can beat them, and if they die then you are in trouble, but if they live for two days you are okay. the man owns his wife, etc. very unjust. I don't happen to believe that the bible is the word of God.
I wonder how many pre-maturely born babies survived in those times. I also wonder how rampant beating a pregnant woman was at that time that this law even was addressed.
I have looked at death certificates from 1911 - 1957 and I can tell you that being premature - even by just a month - was almost certainly a death sentence during that time. I am certain that the mortality rate for premature births during the time that the bible was written must have been very nearly 100 percent. It's amazing how far we have come in that arena.
The part I bolded is not always true. I know of only a few (scratch that, one) other person who has had experiences similar to mine. I was "born again." I joined a pentacostal church. I went to the seminary. I learned Greek. I learned Latin. I learned Hebrew. I studied hard. I prayed hard. I sought after God as I beleived he sought after me. My heart was full of joy that my relationship with God brought to me.
Then, I began to notice things. Little things at first. Things like: Whether the Word of God is allegory, or fact, it must not contain any errors. There have certainly been enough "stories" on the planet for God to be able to make his point without error. So, I returned to the original texts. I found out that I could not return to the original texts. The original texts may never have existed. But if they had, they were changed so much by Esubias and the Council of Nicea that what we have now is untrustworthy, and has errors not just of transcription but of meaning. So, I said, "OK if mankind is so uncaring about the word of God as to lose it, then somewhere the word of God must exist, and it must be unique from all other 'words.' So I looked. I found Christ's miracles recorded in Vedic (Hindu) literature, which were written sometime between 1500 years and 500 years before Christ existed. I found the died, spent 3 days dead, went to hell, rose again resurection, was an exact copy of the Egyptian religion worship of Ra, Horus, and Isis. This one came complete with a madona (Isis). This religion pre-dated Christ's birth by thousands of years. Then I found out that the Romans were crazy-nuts about keeping records. No record of Christ's execution by the Romans was recorded. It wasn't lost--it just was never written down.
So, I said, "Well sometimes government clerks screw up. What about the murderer they let go, "Berabus." It seems that Berabus first name was "Jesus." This seemed highly cooincendintal, so I began a true search for Barabus, Beribus, or however his name should be spelled. There are at least six ways to spell his name. Again, no record of this guy. One thinker, I don't remember his name said, that "Barabus" was a misspelling of "Berabbis" which meant something like "holy, most exhalted, religious teacher" in Aramaic. I don't know Aramaic--so I couldn't comment.
So, there is no record of Jesus being crucified by the Romans. No record of Barabus ever existing. NONE. This was problematic to me. What should I do??? Well, the Jews murdered Christ--right? No. Wait. I learned that the Jewish method of capital punishment was stoning--not crucifiction. So, the Jews didn't do this--if it was done, it was done by the Romans.
Ah well, if the word of God was changed by men, then what can I beleive about the reports of spirits, demons, apparations...perhaps there is a way to find the truth there--oops--not. California Institute of Technology (skeptics society) has spent a lot of time researching this and each and every "event" has received a scientific explanation. They even have a million dollar prize if someone comes up with evidence from the spirit realm that they cannot explain! (better hurry, this offer has been on the table for a very long time, and your competition is trying to be first.)
So, then I decided to bury my head in the old testament. I started out with the ten commandments. Did you know that the words used to say, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors man-servant, nor his maid-servant" don't really say what I put into quote marks? The term "servant" is incorrectly translated. Correctly translated the word means "slave." Not just any kind of slave. Not a slave whose output is owned. But the kind of slave that was completly and totally owned--the owner could do as he pleased with this person.
So, since I can't covet someone's slave, that means it is ok to have slaves. ...the ten commandments says it's ok for me to actually own another human being as property? ...yes. it does.
Well, that analysis means that I, as just little me, have a higher moral plane--that I am more ethical than this god (notice: I changed the use of capitalization.) I cannot beleive that god (or God if you wish) is less ethical than I am.
So, I looked around. I saw tremendous pain and suffering. Darfur, Ethopia, Holocaust, Killing Fields, on and on...God, if he exists has a moral duty to guide people such that those things do not happen. Once again, God dropped the ball on his moral duty.
So, you see....not everyone comes to this research with a closed mind. On the contrary, I think a lot of Christians come to the defense of the bible without the basic knowledge of what they are talking about. Yet, since they have made a commitment, they handily ignore the contradictory evidence.
Excellent post. I wish I could give you a million reps. I too have been through religions, many Christian, even Hindusim and Buddhism. And like you I studied certain things and know that the Bible is contaminated. But even if it weren't I think the Bible was just man's beliefs about what he felt God was, and that those beliefs evolved over time. When I read what Christ had to say, which has also been changed, I found Buddha's words. But I can accept that Christ had a lot fo say that was good, so did Buddha, but I don't accept all that they claim that Buddha or Christ taught either.
Now I lean greatly towards being a Liberal Quaker, and I don't speak for all when I say this: I do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. I believe in God only because I have had an experience of God. I do not believe that God answers prayers. I believe that all people are equal and all are saved.
Yes, there is a lot of suffering, and I don't think that God is able to stop it or for some reason doesn't. But I also think that God is within each of us and it is our duty to help others. I listen to the voice within me that says what I believe. I accept early abortion for elective reasons. But in saying, as I did, that I like abortion is immoral, I also think it is immoral for a woman to save the fetus over her own life. This does not mean that I judge such a woman. Just that for me it is immoral. So I would say that I am actually pro abortion. It is not up to me to decide. I also don't believe that destroying a fetus is murder. The life of a woman comes first, and I do not wish suffering on anyone. I would rather that women used birth control.
Last edited by Mattie Jo; 03-10-2009 at 06:41 AM..
There are many books that speak about Ra, etc. You may wish to read Pagan Christs by John Mackinnon Robertson. It is a thick book that lists all the pagan Christs and how they were all said to be Gods, they also saved people from their sins, they were cruicified, they were born of virgins, etc.
By the way, a slave is a slave, is a slave. In the Bible they could beat them to an inch of their death, and if they die right away it is wrong, if they live for two days and die, well, that is okay.
...
The Bible tells us in Exodus 4 if two men fight, and one hits another and kills him, the killer must be executed. If they hit a pregnant woman (this is the literal translation of the Hebrew) and kill her, it is also a capital crime. If the woman is not hurt, but the fetuses (plural in the original Hebrew) are lost (literally "and her children went out"), then the killer must pay a monetary fine. It is not a capital crime. This establishes the principle that a person does not become a person until birth for killing a fetus is not a capital crime. This is true even if the fetuses were twins (fetuses in plural). When we think first-degree murder as a capital crime, we must not think that abortion is the same type of thing. It is very wrong to say, as some do, the widespread practice of abortion is like a Holocaust
Actually I would dis-agree.
Exodus is great but it does not establish the principles of when a babe becomes a living soul. Genesis does.
Soul: Breath-life was breathed into the nostrils of man and he became a living soul.
It is all in the Hebrew language, and is commonly lost in English.
Exodus does show and explain the principle though.
It is as the difference between killing and murder. A huge difference.
Exodus is great but it does not establish the principles of when a babe becomes a living soul. Genesis does.
Soul: Breath-life was breathed into the nostrils of man and he became a living soul.
It is all in the Hebrew language, and is commonly lost in English.
Exodus does show and explain the principle though.
It is as the difference between killing and murder. A huge difference.
May God bless you.
So are you saying that a fetus is not a living soul until it is born. I remember a past life regression book where people who were hypnotised said that the soul didn't enter the baby until just before or right after the birth of the child, but those that were for abortion, after having gone through this experience under hypnosis, were now against abortion for some reason.
but isn't it true that a baby has emotions when still in the womb? Not sure, but good thing to look up. For anyone interested this is what I found so far:
Would they be able to destroy the egg? Would they also be able to destroy it when it began to look human? But would their views change because they can see it?
Last edited by Mattie Jo; 03-10-2009 at 09:52 AM..
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