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I still think that the Bible is largely an assemblage of letters, books, and historical recordings that were assembled to establish a biased canon that has absolutely no place in a persons relationship with Jesus or God the Father. Too often scripture is accepted on "faith" and not rationale or reason.....even when first person (eyewitnessed) evidence is presented.
An example: Creative design, creationism. All evidence is that God did not sit down and create in one fell swoop, a man, the animals, the plants, etc. We have hard evidence that today's sharks existed eons prior to the time of Adam and Eve. We have hard evidence that plants that exist today had ancestral roots that predate Adam by eons. We have hard evidence that animals evolve.....why else would there be beef cattle and milk cattle except through selective breeding? How else would Luther Burbank begin the science of genetic modification of plants? If plants and animals didn't evolve, why doesn't Penicillin cure AID's?
Why do church fathers insist that creationism is fact? All evidence points to the lack of creationist facts. The only supporting statements for it is where the creationist believer states that his support is based on faith. In other words, there is no evidence except the word of a book that is presumably inerrant.
Yet, the contradictions persist......incest is wrong in every culture in the world, both Christian and non-Christian. But Lot was seduced by his daughters and founded two of the tribes of Israel, God's Chosen People.
In the New Testament, where there is a new covenant (contract/agreement between God and Man), there is nothing mentioned about building a church building. It has been argued that Jesus said that Peter was to be the foundation on which Jesus would build His church, but at no time during Jesus' life nor in the 300+ years after His death was the construction of a worship center important. In fact, even Paul, the most legalistic and prolific contributor to the Bible NEVER built a church building, yet he is considered the quintessential evangelist and church starter. So what was Jesus talking about when He told Peter that Peter would be the foundation? Jesus talked about faith throughout His ministry. He talked about a relationship with God throughout His ministry. He talked about caring for others throughout His ministry.......It was the faith of Peter that would create the church. It was the dedication of Peter to God that created the church. It was the compassion for others by Peter that created the church. It had NOTHING to do with a hierarchical establishment. Yet we have thousands of groups, smug in their righteousness, meeting in dedicated buildings, spending billions of dollars on them, all in buildings and structures that for more than 300 years were considered non-essential to faith by the people that actually listened, first person, to Jesus.
I find it interesting that Paul, arguably the most prolific writer of the New Testament, speaks volumes about how we should act....the rules we should follow, who we should associate with, who we should shun, how we should meet. Many of which are in contradiction with Jesus who, Himself, sat down with outcasts, the unclean, the leper, the prostitute, the tax collector. Jesus taught compassion and forgiveness. Paul taught that if someone messes up, shun them until they come back in humility.
Jesus never authorized a Bible. He didn't need a Bible.....either before or after the crucifixion. He said very clearly that He would be with whomever met together in His name.
So how do you justify the Bible, as the Word of God, without using the word "faith" and without using the Bible as self-justification?
There's a lot of historical evidence that support the integrity of the bible. Some people don't beleive it, so, probably can't do what you ask to your liking.
But that just means you're not satisfied....it doesn't mean the bible or Christianity is wrong.
Jesus quoted the scriptures frequently and He did indeed read from the same scriptures we read from today.
Your post really kinda reeks of a lack of understanding.
Having said all that, no, we can never totally take faith out of the equation.....but that doesn't mean it's blind faith.
There's a lot of historical evidence that support the integrity of the bible.
Weaving historic events into the fabric of a scripture has long been a truism. to me it is a lot like the Mormons saying the Book of Mormon is true, after all we can prove the existence of Joseph Smith, We can prove the unbelievable hardships of the Mormon faithful on their way to Utah, we can prove the persecution they suffered in the mid-west, so that means the rest of it is also true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Jesus quoted the scriptures frequently and He did indeed read from the same scriptures we read from today.
He read from the Torah.....much of which was incorporated into the Old Testament. He did not read any of the New Testament as none of it had been written during His lifetime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Your post really kinda reeks of a lack of understanding.
Your post reeks of an attempt to defend the indefensible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Having said all that, no, we can never totally take faith out of the equation.....but that doesn't mean it's blind faith.
Jesus said in John 14:25-26 (NIV)-- 25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
For understanding, he is authorizing the writing of the NT by the disciples by informing them the Holy Spirit (Counselor) will be upon them to lead them into all truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture
He didn't need a Bible.....either before or after the crucifixion.
No, of course he didn't need a bible, as he was God. His words are God's words and God's authority. However, he continually verified and upheld scripture (OT) by quoting it and using it throughout his ministry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture
So how do you justify the Bible, as the Word of God, without using the word "faith" and without using the Bible as self-justification?
We can't and shouldn't be required to. By removing the bible from the argument, the debate is biased against the Christian and the deck is stacked in the accuser's favor. By no means is it a level playing field. Your request is no different than me asking someone to "prove" their understanding of evolution without using science. They are inextricably linked, just as faith and God's word are linked.
It should be noted as well that the Bible is actually different books, letters, manuscripts written by various authors over a long period of time. So, in actuality, by keeping the bible in the discussion, I am really using one book to verify another book, all contained in one volume known as the bible.
An example: Creative design, creationism. All evidence is that God did not sit down and create in one fell swoop, a man, the animals, the plants, etc. We have hard evidence that today's sharks existed eons prior to the time of Adam and Eve. We have hard evidence that plants that exist today had ancestral roots that predate Adam by eons. We have hard evidence that animals evolve.....why else would there be beef cattle and milk cattle except through selective breeding? How else would Luther Burbank begin the science of genetic modification of plants? If plants and animals didn't evolve, why doesn't Penicillin cure AID's?
Why do church fathers insist that creationism is fact? All evidence points to the lack of creationist facts. The only supporting statements for it is where the creationist believer states that his support is based on faith. In other words, there is no evidence except the word of a book that is presumably inerrant.
This is your understanding of the bible and your understanding of what science tells us. There are others with different views that explain what you consider a contradiction/discrepancy. As long as there is at least one valid, reasonable explanation, it cannot be by definition considered a contradiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture
Yet, the contradictions persist......incest is wrong in every culture in the world, both Christian and non-Christian. But Lot was seduced by his daughters and founded two of the tribes of Israel, God's Chosen People.
God's word tells us all the time what is right and what is wrong. People every day choose to ignore this and do what they want. Does that make it any less wrong? Are we supposed to punish the innocent child that may result from incest? This, IMO, is an example of God bringing good from bad. Others can see it however they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture
In the New Testament, where there is a new covenant (contract/agreement between God and Man), there is nothing mentioned about building a church building. It has been argued that Jesus said that Peter was to be the foundation on which Jesus would build His church, but at no time during Jesus' life nor in the 300+ years after His death was the construction of a worship center important. In fact, even Paul, the most legalistic and prolific contributor to the Bible NEVER built a church building, yet he is considered the quintessential evangelist and church starter. So what was Jesus talking about when He told Peter that Peter would be the foundation? Jesus talked about faith throughout His ministry. He talked about a relationship with God throughout His ministry. He talked about caring for others throughout His ministry.......It was the faith of Peter that would create the church. It was the dedication of Peter to God that created the church. It was the compassion for others by Peter that created the church. It had NOTHING to do with a hierarchical establishment. Yet we have thousands of groups, smug in their righteousness, meeting in dedicated buildings, spending billions of dollars on them, all in buildings and structures that for more than 300 years were considered non-essential to faith by the people that actually listened, first person, to Jesus.
I find it interesting that Paul, arguably the most prolific writer of the New Testament, speaks volumes about how we should act....the rules we should follow, who we should associate with, who we should shun, how we should meet. Many of which are in contradiction with Jesus who, Himself, sat down with outcasts, the unclean, the leper, the prostitute, the tax collector. Jesus taught compassion and forgiveness. Paul taught that if someone messes up, shun them until they come back in humility.
Again, these are your understandings and, from my POV, they are misunderstandings. It does not reflect upon the veracity of the bible or Christianity.
I still think that the Bible is largely an assemblage of letters, books, and historical recordings that were assembled to establish a biased canon that has absolutely no place in a persons relationship with Jesus or God the Father. Too often scripture is accepted on "faith" and not rationale or reason.....even when first person (eyewitnessed) evidence is presented.
An example: Creative design, creationism. All evidence is that God did not sit down and create in one fell swoop, a man, the animals, the plants, etc. We have hard evidence that today's sharks existed eons prior to the time of Adam and Eve. We have hard evidence that plants that exist today had ancestral roots that predate Adam by eons. We have hard evidence that animals evolve.....why else would there be beef cattle and milk cattle except through selective breeding? How else would Luther Burbank begin the science of genetic modification of plants? If plants and animals didn't evolve, why doesn't Penicillin cure AID's?
Why do church fathers insist that creationism is fact? All evidence points to the lack of creationist facts. The only supporting statements for it is where the creationist believer states that his support is based on faith. In other words, there is no evidence except the word of a book that is presumably inerrant.
Yet, the contradictions persist......incest is wrong in every culture in the world, both Christian and non-Christian. But Lot was seduced by his daughters and founded two of the tribes of Israel, God's Chosen People.
In the New Testament, where there is a new covenant (contract/agreement between God and Man), there is nothing mentioned about building a church building. It has been argued that Jesus said that Peter was to be the foundation on which Jesus would build His church, but at no time during Jesus' life nor in the 300+ years after His death was the construction of a worship center important. In fact, even Paul, the most legalistic and prolific contributor to the Bible NEVER built a church building, yet he is considered the quintessential evangelist and church starter. So what was Jesus talking about when He told Peter that Peter would be the foundation? Jesus talked about faith throughout His ministry. He talked about a relationship with God throughout His ministry. He talked about caring for others throughout His ministry.......It was the faith of Peter that would create the church. It was the dedication of Peter to God that created the church. It was the compassion for others by Peter that created the church. It had NOTHING to do with a hierarchical establishment. Yet we have thousands of groups, smug in their righteousness, meeting in dedicated buildings, spending billions of dollars on them, all in buildings and structures that for more than 300 years were considered non-essential to faith by the people that actually listened, first person, to Jesus.
I find it interesting that Paul, arguably the most prolific writer of the New Testament, speaks volumes about how we should act....the rules we should follow, who we should associate with, who we should shun, how we should meet. Many of which are in contradiction with Jesus who, Himself, sat down with outcasts, the unclean, the leper, the prostitute, the tax collector. Jesus taught compassion and forgiveness. Paul taught that if someone messes up, shun them until they come back in humility.
Jesus never authorized a Bible. He didn't need a Bible.....either before or after the crucifixion. He said very clearly that He would be with whomever met together in His name.
So how do you justify the Bible, as the Word of God, without using the word "faith" and without using the Bible as self-justification?
Jesus quoted the Old Testament all the time, so your belief that Jesus did not need a Bible would be in error. We know who Jesus is today because of the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God, because it is the only Book on earth that knows the future. And the only one who knows the future in detail, is God.
Just for the record, Goodpasture, do you consider yourself a Christian?
Had you bothered reading any of my posts, you would have recognized that the answer to that is an unqualified yes. However, am I a "Christian" of the Nicean derivative church? Not really. I am a follower, a believer, and a friend of Jesus. I am comfortable and have a good relationship with the Holy Spirit. Do I genuflect or adhere to some man made statement of faith? No. I go to the source, not to the "church."
How about you? Do you abide by denominational edicts? or do you follow Jesus?
This is your understanding of the bible and your understanding of what science tells us. There are others with different views that explain what you consider a contradiction/discrepancy.
Ok, that's fair. Provide those differing views, please, and the source of their authority, without using the Bible itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559
It does not reflect upon the veracity of the bible or Christianity.
Actually it does. If you can support the veracity of the Bible then please do so.
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