Country or religion first ?

[AxisMundi]

Originally Posted by nzrugby

What do you put first, country or your religion ?
We had a situation in NZ where a New Zealander of the Jewish faith decided it was good form to help a couple of Mossadd agents to try and steal NZ passports under the name of a crippled NZ lad.

Now most of us were not too upset with the Mossadd agents who were doing their jobs as ordered by Israeli politicians.

But the New Zealander committed treason for his religion and for that he should swing from a hemp rope.
Then we will give him a fair trial.

So people when push comes to shove which do you choose, your country or your religion ?

If one's country happens to be a theocracy, then there is no conflict of course.

However, IMHO, Nation MUST come first, especially here in the States and places like NZ, which enjoy a complex and varied religiousness among it's citizenry.

[cncracer]

Religion is the last on my list and I would work against what I see as a cancer eating at humanity. Humanity would be first and if that included the freedoms we have in the US without ties to religion than I would back it on an equal value with humanity. We have reached a time in man’s growth where we need to make judgments on a world basis, not just a national view, and for sure not on a religious basis.
The economic stress of the last year points out how closely tied the people of the world are now tied. In the future we will need to recognize our bonds, and learn to live with each other without our prejudices, or we will cease to advance.

[Tzaphkiel]

Neither. I choose God.

Originally Posted by coyoteskye

neither ... do away with both of them.
one love, one heart, one world.
if we don't get there ... no peace.

amen and aho to that coyote

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by bluebeard

For better or worse, humans need identities. They have a natural urge to create in-groups and out-groups. nationalism can actually be a positive aspect. I definitely identify myself as American. When I consciously think of my greater identity, American is the first thing that comes to mind.

i actively avoid all labels
except one:
beloved child of a loving Creator
(same as everyone else on this planet)

anything else divides rather than unites
"them" is a 4-letter word no matter how you slice it,
and as such is toxic and to be avoided

[AxisMundi]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

i actively avoid all labels
except one:
beloved child of a loving Creator
(same as everyone else on this planet)

anything else divides rather than unites
"them" is a 4-letter word no matter how you slice it,
and as such is toxic and to be avoided

Do you realize that, in that one simple statement, you have alienated over half of the world's population and essentially created "them"?

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by AxisMundi

Do you realize that, in that one simple statement, you have alienated over half of the world's population and essentially created "them"?

There is no them.
every person on this planet belongs to the same family
we are all we

[TKH]

We had a situation in NZ where a New Zealander of the Jewish faith decided it was good form to help a couple of Mossadd agents to try and steal NZ passports under the name of a crippled NZ lad.

I don't see how this has anything to do with religion. "Mossadd agents" are agents of their country FIRST. Therefore this is a country vs. country problem and the gentleman who stole the passports should be tried for treason, if he is a NZ citizen. If not, he should be tried for crimes against the state and (if he ever gets out of jail) deported.

As to your original question, I have no answer. I go with my conscious 1st. Mamma taught me the difference between right and wrong. I'll go with the side of "right" everytime, regardless of whether that goes against either my country or my religion. I will then accept the consequences, whatever they may be.

Obviously that is what the gentleman who stole the passports felt he was doing. Was he right? Only his conscious can answer that.

[bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

i actively avoid all labels
except one:
beloved child of a loving Creator
(same as everyone else on this planet)

anything else divides rather than unites
"them" is a 4-letter word no matter how you slice it,
and as such is toxic and to be avoided

Me too.
It is an ideal worth fighting for.
It is also unrealistic to expect the world to ever reach that understand. For better or for worse, the world is a diverse place. And psych expirements have shown that it is likely that a sense of "them" is part of our innate instinctual make-up.
Chances are, you do it as well, and don't realize it.
Just as AxisMundi has noted, you have already separeted yourself as one who supposedly does not label. This makes you different than those who do do, no?
It is a utopian dream. Like I said, these ideals of tolerance and acceptance can be positive. But there is also reality to contend with. People will always have different ideas from each other.

[AxisMundi]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

There is no them.
every person on this planet belongs to the same family
we are all we

You stated, in effect, that we are all "children of a loving creator", yet your religiondoens't encompase even a third of the world's population.

Indeed, all three Abrahamics (Jeqws, Christians, Muslims) don't have even half of the world's population.

Since over half of the world's population do not believe in your creator god and/or look to other gods, you have indeed split the world's population in two with your statement.