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Nephi has a vision in which he sees wars and rumors of wars, how does one see rumors of wars?
Some prophets were shown in vision this entire world, its people, and its history from the time of Adam into the future probably up to the Millennium. But most were forbidden to write about it, or if they did, those scriptures were kept hidden to become available to the general public only in the Lord's due time.
A portion of the metal plates that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from was sealed even to him. But it is known that at some time in the future those plates and possibly others will be made available and that sometime in the future, possibly soon judging by the rapid progression of signs of the times, everything from the past will be shouted from the housetops and nothing hid.
"Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops." Luke 12: 3
My guess is that Nephi was made aware that there would be "rumors of wars" circulating in the latter days, which is the time the Book of Mormon was written for. That shouldn't be too strange a concept for those who are familiar with the important role that prophets, angels, and miracles had in the books of the bible.
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The title page of the Book of Mormon, written by its final author, Moroni, near 400 A.D., said that the purposes of the book were:
Convince both Gentiles and Jews that Jesus is The Christ, the eternal God
To show the remnants of the House of Israel the great things that the Lord had done for their ancestors
To teach them the covenants of the Lord
For me, the primary purpose of the book is to bring souls to Christ. It is a powerful witness of Jesus Christ and wonderfully centered on Him.
I believe, as probably do many faithful Christians, that the Lord's work will win in the end even though there are many challenges, particularly in these last days. The tares have been allowed to grow with the wheat, goats to mingle with the sheep. But there will come a time of harvest, a time of separation, a time when the sheep will be gathered to the Lord's right hand, the goats to his left.
The "great and abominable church" is mentioned several times in scriptures that the Latter-day Saints accept as canonical. One prophetic mention of it in the Book of Mormon is:
"And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the ***** of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.
And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great *****, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it." 1 Nephi 22: 13-14
My understanding is that scriptures mentioning the abominable church are referring to there being on the earth, from the Lord's point of view, only two "churches", one being of the Lord, the other of the devil. (One tares/goats, the other wheat/sheep.)
It is my thinking that the "great and abominable church" is not any specific religious denomination but is composed of members of many different churches or even no church at all, being those who consistently choose to do evil towards others and perhaps more specifically those who actively fight against and oppose the Lord and his servants on earth.
As always, I speak only for myself, other Latter-day Saints may have different views regarding your question and some may choose to present them for your consideration. As far as I know there is no official proclamation about that matter and church leaders are known to have their own opinions about many things that are not essential to our eternal salvation.
1. I figured it was the Catholic Church, which creates a problem with timing.
2. Steel? It is my understanding that Hittites were the only ones making steel at this time.
3. Next question, the river entering the Red Sea that Nephi walked to, Name?
1. You might find some Mormons who too think it is or could be the Catholic church because it "sits upon many waters" etc. But as I said, there is no official pronouncement from LDS authorities about the matter and such descriptors would also describe a hypothetical worldwide 'church of the devil', being most likely those who work his works and fight against righteousness, calling good evil and evil good.
I am personally satisfied with my thinking that the devil works wherever on earth there is a child of God regardless of that person's religious leanings or none at all. It only seems logical to me, God not being a respecter of persons, that all who fight against Him, not just the members of a specific denomination or church, are in the devil's camp.
2. As the article from one source that I consider to be reliable mentioned: "Forged steel was more common in the ancient Near East in general and in Israel by Lehi's time than many have imagined."
But I am not academically equipped to do more research on the matter than anyone could do using a search engine. Because I know The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ to be true, having successfully applied its spiritual test, the matter of steel swords does not trouble me in the least. If the presence of steel in Book of Mormon locations during Book of Mormon times hasn't yet been proven by the people with letters after their name, then it's most likely at some date in the future they will finally find it.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The Book of Mormon has never been validly refuted by anyone, but those who seek to fight against the Latter-day Saints and their religious beliefs keep on trying. Ho hum, why should today be any different?
3. I don't know, but there has been some very interesting research happening on that side of Lehi's long journey from Jerusalem to the Americas about 600 BC. I'll try to find a link and post it in this thread, but please keep in mind that proof of the Book of Mormon is intended to be a spiritual one. That method has much greater persuasive power in the minds of recipients of the Holy Ghost than the persuasion that comes from intellectually agreeing with one side of a scholarly argument, or digs and anthropological interpretations of things found that are often only considered valid until something new and different is dug up, or another scholar enters the fray...
Edit: I suggest that you contact the people at "The Nephi Project" and ask them for information about the river you are referring to:
Rather than wade through all the posts to find answers, I am just going to ask new for me questions.
I am reading the Book of Mormon and I find odd things.
Now, please don't respond that these things are just part of the unknowable miracles, as that ain't no answer.
Laman had a sword of steel during the age of bronze, how?
Steel was around, but it was very rare. There was such a knife found in the tomb of Tutankhamen from 1300 BC, 600 years earlier than the supposed start of the Book of Mormon. *Eternal Egypt*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks
Nephi has a vision in which he sees wars and rumors of wars, how does one see rumors of wars?
You kinda have to squint and look out of the corner of your left eye, then right in rapid succession.
Some prophets were shown in vision this entire world, its people, and its history from the time of Adam into the future probably up to the Millennium. But most were forbidden to write about it, or if they did, those scriptures were kept hidden to become available to the general public only in the Lord's due time.
You are mislead.
Enoch was a prophet who was shown everything and wrote of it, and it was not hidden, and it all refutes Mormon doctrine completely -as it does all foundations of all false religions; esp those that change the Gospel of Christ into another gospel with another Jesus, and which rely on another spirit, to prove to them that their contradictions to the Holy Scriptures of the Holy Bible are 'really what "God" meant to say".
Enoch was shown the "Scripture of Truth" written in heaven on tablets, which the angel showed Daniel, as reported in Daniel 10:21, when he showed Daniel what was written in that Scripture of Truth in heaven, about the things to come concerning Daniel's own people.
Enoch was also given dream visions that told the history of this world, until the end of the millennial reign, and he saw the regeneration of the heavens and the earth. His writings were not hidden, except to those who chose blindness. They are in the list/canon of the Ethiopian Coptic collection of books/Bible, and have always been, since they, as converts to Moses and as natural born of Israel, Ethiopians, converted to Jesus Christ early in the Church age.
Quote:
INTRODUCTION
[Chapter 1]
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:
[Chapter 81] 1 And he said unto me:
' Observe, Enoch, these heavenly tablets,
And read what is written thereon,
And mark every individual fact.' 2 And I observed the heavenly tablets, and read everything which was written (thereon) and understood everything, and read the book of all the deeds of mankind, and of all the children of flesh 3 that shall be upon the earth to the remotest generations. And forthwith I blessed the great Lord the King of glory for ever, in that He has made all the works of the world,
And I extolled the Lord because of His patience,
And blessed Him because of the children of men.
[Chapter 82] 1 And now, my son Methuselah, all these things I am recounting to thee and writing down for thee! and I have revealed to thee everything, and given thee books concerning all these: so preserve, my son Methuselah, the books from thy father's hand, and (see) that thou deliver them to the generations of the world.
2 I have given Wisdom to thee and to thy children,
[And thy children that shall be to thee],
That they may give it to their children for generations,
This wisdom (namely) that passeth their thought.
3 And those who understand it shall not sleep,
But shall listen with the ear that they may learn this wisdom,
And it shall please those that eat thereof better than good food.
And Jesus read Enoch and called it Scripture in one place, and the Wisdom of God, in another Luk 11:49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:
These are just some of my personal observations of LDS folks that I am pleased to share regarding this most interesting thread.
First of all I am absolutely impressed with the highly intelligent, well mannered, respectful and neatly dressed LDS Missionary youth whom are very much a familiar part of our township way up here on the East Coast !
The Mormon Church is also involved with the communities youth through it's tremendously successful Boy & Girl Scout programs.
Not only does this outstanding Church have a very large attendance level but they are also active in so many community programs for young and old alike .
These are great folks whom do a great deal of good in the world at large.
Let us not be so ridiculously prejudiced and sterotypical when we consider these exceptionally proud and dedicated LDS's.
Indeed they make a most welcome addition to this area way, way up here !
It is divinely inspired.
The Bible is not "secondary" to the Book of Mormon. Is the gospel according to Mark secondary in your mind to the gospel according to Luke?
What "early Christians" agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity? Clearly none of them prior to 325 A.D. did. You talk of 4th century Christianity as if it was the same as 1st century Christianity. Surely you don't believe it was.
Do you really think you're in a position of telling me what God is to me? I can't imagine anybody being so presumptuous as to tell people of another religion what they believe!
Katzpur ! ... You are right on target with this post!
I have had the pleasure of reading your great posts on some of the other forums and they are always first rate!
Methinks that the miniscule amount of LDS knowledge you may have forgotten over the years is tremendously more wisdom than some of these
grumbling & troublsome folks may obtain in a lifetime !
Your Mormon expertise is well beyond the comprehension of so many here on CDF. Great Work ! Thanks / Lamar
I don't know, but there has been some very interesting research happening on that side of Lehi's long journey from Jerusalem to the Americas about 600 BC. I'll try to find a link and post it in this thread, but please keep in mind that proof of the Book of Mormon is intended to be a spiritual one. That method has much greater persuasive power in the minds of recipients of the Holy Ghost than the persuasion that comes from intellectually agreeing with one side of a scholarly argument, or digs and anthropological interpretations of things found that are often only considered valid until something new and different is dug up, or another scholar enters the fray...
I am a concrete sort of fellow, I can understand "miracles" as allegorical stories designed to get a point across, but I expect geography and other concrete statements to be accurate. The bible works as history because the concrete statements of place and time can be found on the ground.
As I continue to read, I am likely to have more questions.
Right now, three days from Jerusalem to the Red Sea, and a river flowing into the Red Sea in the Israel, Egypt Jordan Saudi area does not work for me.
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You are right on target with this post!