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Rationalism is a crutch for weak minded people who are too big a punch of cowards to create their own reality and hence, they lazily submit to a reality that has been made for them instead of having the courage and making the effort to forge a reality of their own. Do enjoy waddling in your own emptiness and meaningless quest for meaning in a world that you simply accept, much like a pig waddles in it's own filth.
This is victorianpunk response to this post.
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Originally Posted by Gplex
So now you have drop all you claims on how dogmatic atheism is, and drop down to "well it makes me feel good" argument.
VP you remind me of vfx
"With a smile on your face you advocate the abandonment of scientific naturalism, how selfish of you sir, with a tune on your heart you gleefully point the path back to the dark ages and encourage people to follow, promoting a path that leads to needless death and suffering. You are the very epitome of evil" - Thunderf00t
You advocated dropping scientific naturalism just so you can have a "happy delusion".
Those who do not want to accept reality, the irrational and willfully ignorant are weak minded. Not able too accept reality, but would rather live in a fairy tale, and hope away all the problems of man kind.
You advocated dropping scientific naturalism just so you can have a "happy delusion".
Indeed, I am happy, but "delusion" is not the right word. The belief that reality actuality exists as anything but a construct of the mind is indeed a delusion held by a few...FIRST AND FOR MOST, allow me to point out that Rationalism is not Atheism. I have met Atheist ghost hunters who knew Hermetic Magick better then I can. Atheism is just the belief that their is no God, while Rationalism is the belief in the absolute supremacy of logic, reason, and a whole host of other BS systems that rely on "empirical evidence".
Anyway, all that "empirical evidence" crap is just information being processed by your brain...EVERYTHING YOU KNOW AND HOLD DEAR IS NOTHING MORE THEN A BUNCH OF ELECTRIC INPULSES GOING OFF IN YOUR HEAD. Hence, reality, as far as we know, is just in one's mind. Now, the Rationalist, in his sheep-like obedience to the reality presented to him by the said, faulty, "empirical evidence" looks at the revelation that the line between "fantasy" and "reality" is so thin that it might as well not exist and shrug and go back to hiding behind "facts" and "figures", while those us of a different persuasion laugh at reality and go forward to create our own.
It is not easy confronting the lie of "the real" armed only with the will of one's heart to do so. The ultimate tool of absolute happiness for people like me is "faith", "faith" being our minds (which, again, is the only thing that really exist: The Matrix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and go forward and make leaps of faith that are used to accomplish one thing that the Rationalist refuses to do: Assign reality to our own liking.
Look at it like this: Who has the bigger pair of gonads, the man who only believes what he is taught and studied in a labratory, or the man who walks off a cliff, smiling all the while knowing full and well that the bottom of the cliff will open up into the world of Lewis Carrol's "wonderland"?
Another point to consider is that the man who creates his own reality and walks off the cliff is smiling while he does so. Meanwhile, the Rationalist, does not smile but just goes through life with all of his "empirical evidence" and other reason garbage which leads him to no absolute truth of self existince but just a few old, pale polynomials and bar codes.
Bottom line is: True meaning in life can only be found on a case by ase basis by each individual. All the social norms and even "laws" of nature have no point and will crumble before a strong willed, irrational mind dedicated to finding his or her own joy and reason in life via any means he or she sees fit, as long as it does not interfere with anyone else's ability to find happiness and meaning in life. Hence, in the pursuit of happiness, a person is, for no reason other then the joy of it, completely justified for believing in Fairies, GOD, elves, or what have you.
The Rationalist reaction is that individual joy and happiness must take a backseat to the absurd concept of "reality" and that gaining joy from something that does not exist, according to their own Rationalist world view, is somehow wrong. The Rationalist does not look at the world on an individual by individual basis (that is your reality, this is my reality, and all that matters is that we are both happy with our respective realities!) but a collective, almost Communist basis (this is all of our reality and we all have to have the same set of beliefs in the material world and if you don't like it, you should be corrected: Electroconvulsive therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Mind control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
So clearly, we see that the Existenial Theistic/Irrationalist world view is more demcratic and allows for the individual to more freely decide life, meaning, and even reality for him or herself.
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Those who do not want to accept reality, the irrational and willfully ignorant are weak minded.
The Rationalist is weak in that he refuses to challenge what is presented as "reality" armed with only faith, andis is usually ignorant of the thing that matter most: his or her own heart and desires. I say "usually" because for some, they truly want a reality of being a slave to a Cubicle, punching numbers all day, not having fairies in a garden (or even a garden for that matter, because the Utilitarian Rationalist worldview holds that a grocery store would be more efficent) and no God. For those few people I say somthing the Rationalists refuse to say: GO FOR IT! If it makes you happy and does not hurt anyone else, by all means, stick to it.
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Not able too accept reality, but would rather live in a fairy tale, and hope away all the problems of man kind.
Hate to burst your bubble buddy, but science and Rationalism have created most of the problems of man kind....
This is not to say that being rational, occasionally, is a bad thing. While the Rationalist will never know the joys of absolute irrationality, the irrationalist can occasionally use rationalism to do something in his or her quest for meaning and joy, but the key word here is "USES". The Rationalist is being USED by Rationality and is the slave to "Logic", while the Irrationalist enslaves Logic and Reason to do his bidding and is, in turned, only a slave to the one thing that it isn't bad being a slave to: HIS OR HER OWN HEART! As The great anti-rationalist David Hume once said:
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Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them
The ultimate goal of an irrationalist is to be happy and make reality do as our heart says...the ultimate goal of the Rationalists is to be Rational and claims that the heart should do as Reality says. I don't think it takes a genius to see which one is preferred...
Indeed, I am happy, but "delusion" is not the right word. The belief that reality actuality exists as anything but a construct of the mind is indeed a delusion held by a few...FIRST AND FOR MOST, allow me to point out that Rationalism is not Atheism. I have met Atheist ghost hunters who knew Hermetic Magick better then I can. Atheism is just the belief that their is no God, while Rationalism is the belief in the absolute supremacy of logic, reason, and a whole host of other BS systems that rely on "empirical evidence".
It is a perfect word describing what you are advocating. A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception.
Atheism is only 1 thing. A non belief in deities. Other then that you can believe what ever you want, and still have the label "atheist".
Rationalist rely on rational thinking. Using scientific naturalism is the best way to find out what is fact, and what is fiction.
People go watch movies, read books, and listen to stories, they know are not real, just for the thrill. But you. You want advocate the abandonment of scientific naturalism, and delusional thinking.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Anyway, all that "empirical evidence" crap is just information being processed by your brain...EVERYTHING YOU KNOW AND HOLD DEAR IS NOTHING MORE THEN A BUNCH OF ELECTRIC INPULSES GOING OFF IN YOUR HEAD. Hence, reality, as far as we know, is just in one's mind. Now, the Rationalist, in his sheep-like obedience to the reality presented to him by the said, faulty, "empirical evidence" looks at the revelation that the line between "fantasy" and "reality" is so thin that it might as well not exist and shrug and go back to hiding behind "facts" and "figures", while those us of a different persuasion laugh at reality and go forward to create our own.
It is not easy confronting the lie of "the real" armed only with the will of one's heart to do so. The ultimate tool of absolute happiness for people like me is "faith", "faith" being our minds (which, again, is the only thing that really exist: The Matrix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and go forward and make leaps of faith that are used to accomplish one thing that the Rationalist refuses to do: Assign reality to our own liking.
The blind faith that you are talking about is not accepted in anything we do, except when it comes to religious beliefs.
YouTube - Sam Harris makes a joke and a point
The matrix is on my side. He could not twist reality, till he understood that it was only a computer simulation and doesn't follow the laws that govern this universe.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Look at it like this: Who has the bigger pair of gonads, the man who only believes what he is taught and studied in a labratory, or the man who walks off a cliff, smiling all the while knowing full and well that the bottom of the cliff will open up into the world of Lewis Carrol's "wonderland"?
Neither. The person who walk off the cliff without evidence is STUPID and makes a big SPLAT when he hits the bottom.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Another point to consider is that the man who creates his own reality and walks off the cliff is smiling while he does so. Meanwhile, the Rationalist, does not smile but just goes through life with all of his "empirical evidence" and other reason garbage which leads him to no absolute truth of self existince but just a few old, pale polynomials and bar codes.
As a rationalist, I would wait till he hits the ground, then say "I told you so".
A rational person knowing all the majority of the facts we have collected over the history of man kind will know our place in the universe.
You make the claim that a rational person can not have a happy life, but that is only your opinion. But at least I will try and make things better, instead of pretending it is all "great".
I see you as the stereotypical 19th century girl that smiles at everything, trying to pretend it is all right being treated like a dog.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Bottom line is: True meaning in life can only be found on a case by ase basis by each individual. All the social norms and even "laws" of nature have no point and will crumble before a strong willed, irrational mind dedicated to finding his or her own joy and reason in life via any means he or she sees fit, as long as it does not interfere with anyone else's ability to find happiness and meaning in life. Hence, in the pursuit of happiness, a person is, for no reason other then the joy of it, completely justified for believing in Fairies, GOD, elves, or what have you.
Meaning of life is give by you. Rational or irrational.
Hey if you have the delusion that everyone is happy, even if they are falling off a cliff to their death, then I'm sure you can irrational conclude that no matter what you do, they will all be happy, as long as you can convince them to be delusional.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
The Rationalist reaction is that individual joy and happiness must take a backseat to the absurd concept of "reality" and that gaining joy from something that does not exist, according to their own Rationalist world view, is somehow wrong. The Rationalist does not look at the world on an individual by individual basis (that is your reality, this is my reality, and all that matters is that we are both happy with our respective realities!) but a collective, almost Communist basis (this is all of our reality and we all have to have the same set of beliefs in the material world and if you don't like it, you should be corrected: Electroconvulsive therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Mind control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
I find it hard to believe that you think reality is absurd. It would be absurd if we live in a world of magic. Nothing would make sense, it would be like living in "Alice in Wonderland" movie.
So clearly, we see that the Existenial Theistic/Irrationalist world view is more demcratic and allows for the individual to more freely decide life, meaning, and even reality for him or herself.
No, scientific naturalism doesn't run on a democratic system. Because what the majority of people "believe" does not make it so. If we ran off this system, creationism in US would be true
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
The Rationalist is weak in that he refuses to challenge what is presented as "reality" armed with only faith, andis is usually ignorant of the thing that matter most: his or her own heart and desires. I say "usually" because for some, they truly want a reality of being a slave to a Cubicle, punching numbers all day, not having fairies in a garden (or even a garden for that matter, because the Utilitarian Rationalist worldview holds that a grocery store would be more efficent) and no God. For those few people I say somthing the Rationalists refuse to say: GO FOR IT! If it makes you happy and does not hurt anyone else, by all means, stick to it.
That's where you are wrong.
A rationalist is willing to confront beliefs they through where right, but turn out to be wrong.
The delusional irrational person covers their ears and pretends not to hear.
It takes a strong person to look at things that make them feel uncomfortable, and accept them, instead of being an irrational delusional person who doesn't want to accept the truth.
"If it makes you happy and does not hurt anyone else, by all means, stick to it." - A irrational belief does not have to stick to this. You can believe what ever you want if you are an irrational delusional person.
Its funny how you don't see how rational thinking is holding you back from doing what every you want to make yourself happy.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Hate to burst your bubble buddy, but science and Rationalism have created most of the problems of man kind....
No. Science and rational thinking has improve our lifestyle. But this is just my opinion, because I would rather be here with all my immunity to virus, having access to antibiotics and modern medical knowledge and technology, all the food I can eat, clean water, having the opportunity to study the universe, and chatting with people all over the world, through this amazing technology, then struggling on a peace of land, hoping that there will not be a drought, plague, or war so my family and I can survive just a little longer without suffering.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
This is not to say that being rational, occasionally, is a bad thing. While the Rationalist will never know the joys of absolute irrationality, the irrationalist can occasionally use rationalism to do something in his or her quest for meaning and joy, but the key word here is "USES". The Rationalist is being USED by Rationality and is the slave to "Logic", while the Irrationalist enslaves Logic and Reason to do his bidding and is, in turned, only a slave to the one thing that it isn't bad being a slave to: HIS OR HER OWN HEART! As The great anti-rationalist David Hume once said:
No one lives for very long when the go completely irrational. There is no "bidding" to reason and logic. Reason and logic will tell you what is most likely true. Using that you can get what you want quicker, and more efficiently. Unlike someone who is completely irrational and delusional.
You keep saying "slaves". Am I a slave, knowing that I will surely die if exposed to a huge amount of radiation?
Am I a slave know the horrors of the pass wars, that we should do everything in our power to avoid it?
Name ONE thing that turns me into a slave, because I have learn the truth?
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
The ultimate goal of an irrationalist is to be happy and make reality do as our heart says...the ultimate goal of the Rationalists is to be Rational and claims that the heart should do as Reality says. I don't think it takes a genius to see which one is preferred...
No. Being rational only dictates rational decisions. Eg. If I go and get drunk, I will need someone to drive me home or I increase the risk of killing me and others around me.
Reality doesn't say anything I know you are delusional, but take my word, that reality doesn't command us like a slave owner. I make my own decision, based on what I know to be true.
Knowing what is fact, and what is fictions will protect you and the people around you.
Eg. The news says the man next to you just killed 10 people, do you A, make friends, or B leave as fast as possible, C attack the person before he tries to hurt you, and a near infinite amount of other choices that varies, or combines the above.
Your notions of "slaves to reality" is nothing but a plea to emotions, but any rational person will see right through it.
It is a perfect word describing what you are advocating. A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception.
"Family Guy" is, technically, a deception...does that mean I am "irrational" for laughing at it?
As I said, reality is not consensual, but is individual. What is right for one person's reality, is not right for another.
Look at it this way: the only people alive on Earth after the Nuclear War (the result of the sciences, btw) are five Schizopheniacs and one "sane" person. All the Schizopheniacs see a big bat in the sky that flies a way, but the one "sane" person does not. Who was the crazy person, the Schizopheniacs, or the man who did not have the "hallucination of the bat?
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Atheism is only 1 thing. A non belief in deities. Other then that you can believe what ever you want, and still have the label "atheist".
Ohhh that is exactly what I was saying. This is not a Atheists vs. Theist debate, but one of Rationalism vs. Existenialism/Idealism. I can respect Atheism...Rationalism, while I think it works well for Rationalists, is not suited for others who find it too boring.
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Rationalist rely on rational thinking. Using scientific naturalism is the best way to find out what is fact, and what is fiction.
Those are two terms that do not amount to a hill of beans. Again, "fact" and "fiction" are subjective. "Beauty" cannot be proven via the scientific method, and hence, it is "fiction". And, as I have said, repeaditly, all of the way we observe the emperical evidence is with our senses which is nothing more then a few electrons blasting off in your head. HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW YOUR WHOLE LIFE HAS NOT BEEN A DREAM? You don't.
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People go watch movies, read books, and listen to stories, they know are not real, just for the thrill. But you. You want advocate the abandonment of scientific naturalism, and delusional thinking.
Of course I do, in a way. I advocate, for those people whom would enjoy it, to abandon logic and reason and, instead, believe in and follow their heart. Ultimately, your brain might as well of been lying to you all these years and you might already be dead anyway. So, for those who wish to do so, create a new reality which is just as real to you as a science experiment is to a Rationalist.
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But the line does exist. There is a huge difference to what is happening inside my mind, and what is happening in reality.
How do you know? What, because the empirical evidence tells you? And where do you process the information that you get that empirical evidence from? Ohh yes, in your mind...ohh, wait
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"Sheep-like obedience to the reality" Paying attention to reality has given us all the technology we have,
Including nuclear weapons, the Internal Combustion Engine (global warming) germ warfair, nuclear waste, the Holocene Extinction event, etc etc etc...
As I have said, and said, AND SAID, follow your bliss as long as it does not hurt anyone else. Allowing a child to die is obviously hurts the child, so they are not what I am talking about.
The blind faith that you are talking about is not accepted in anything we do, except when it comes to religious beliefs.
It is not my problem that the rest of society has a certain view or not. I can only speak for myself. I, myself, belief that faith in anything, be it Elvis, Elves, or romantic love (the latter of which I certaintly do not believe in) as long as it makes you happy and does not hurt anyone.
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The matrix is on my side. He could not twist reality, till he understood that it was only a computer simulation and doesn't follow the laws that govern this universe.
And how do you know that you are not in a computer simulation? Maybe I am just ahead of the curve?
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Neither. The person who walk off the cliff without evidence is STUPID and makes a big SPLAT when he hits the bottom.
But if he goes SPLAT with a smile on his face, is he not happier then 80 miserable years behind a cubicle?
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As a rationalist, I would wait till he hits the ground, then say "I told you so".
But he was happy in the moments before he hit the target. You seem to think that the point of life is to life as logical an existince as possible for as long as possible is the point. I believe that life is short anyway, so who cares? Have fun. As Mel Gibson wants said, "Every man dies....not every man truly lives."
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A rational person knowing all the majority of the facts we have collected over the history of man kind will know our place in the universe.
I am not mankind. Mankind (if it does exist) will go on for long after I am gone (unless that whole 2012 thing is true...) Hence, I and I alone must make my own place in life.
Rationalism: Allow what a few white coated egg heads tell you to dictate your place in reality.
Existenialist Idealist: Go out there, decide for yourself, and carve not just a life, but a reality of your own on your terms.
Which is better?
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You make the claim that a rational person can not have a happy life, but that is only your opinion.
I never claimed such a thing. All I said was that Rationalism works best for the Rationalist, while another school of thought works better for someone else. The difference between you and me is that I don't go imposing my belief on others.
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But at least I will try and make things better, instead of pretending it is all "great".
When did I say I believe that everything is "great"? There are plenty of scary things out there. In my reality, there are not only good things, but plenty of bad things too...human nature I guess. If we have faires, then we have to have demons. I believe in Fairies...but I also believe in those...ever see something in the corner of your eye, but when you look, it's gone?
There is a reason why man used to fear the dark...some of us have not forgotten, and neither have they.
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I see you as the stereotypical 19th century girl that smiles at everything, trying to pretend it is all right being treated like a dog.
Rationalist: We can never hope to defeat the British so let's just keep paying the high taxes
Idealist: NO! Let's rebel! We will call it the "Contential Army!"
Rationalist: Yahh, okay. The evidence is clear that we don't stand a chance against the British Empire and will never win! Be Rational
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Meaning of life is give by you. Rational or irrational.
As I said, the meaning of life can only be found as someone sees fit.
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Hey if you have the delusion that everyone is happy, even if they are falling off a cliff to their death, then I'm sure you can irrational conclude that no matter what you do, they will all be happy, as long as you can convince them to be delusional.
In all honestly, not trying to be mean, but you swished from "they" to "you" too much I think and I don't know what you mean. I am not calling you stupid or anything! I am sure it's just a type-o and I do it all the time myself.
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I find it hard to believe that you think reality is absurd.
I do not think reality is absurd. Only consenual reality is absurd. We all make are own reality as we go along.
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It would be absurd if we live in a world of magic. Nothing would make sense, it would be like living in "Alice in Wonderland" movie.
To you? No, to someone else? Indeed.
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No, scientific naturalism doesn't run on a democratic system.
Indeed, it does not. In runs on a Totalitarian system.
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Because what the majority of people "believe" does not make it so.
Indeed it does. As I said, for all we know the few Schizophreniacs might be the only ones precieving reality as it truly is, while the rest of us are the real insane ones. Hence, "sanity" and "reality" are only proven by consensus, and not by anything else.
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If we ran off this system, creationism in US would be true
For those whom believe it, creationism is absolute truth.
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That's where you are wrong.
A rationalist is willing to confront beliefs they through where right, but turn out to be wrong.
The delusional irrational person covers their ears and pretends not to hear.
"Deluded" or "idealist"? I could just as easily call a Rationalist a "robot".
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It takes a strong person to look at things that make them feel uncomfortable, and accept them, instead of being an irrational delusional person who doesn't want to accept the truth.
As I said, with fairies, come Goblins, with Angels come demons, with GOD comes satan. A rationalists would try to rationalize away those things that go bump in the night and think happy-happy thoughts about their cubicle, while someone like me understands that there are some pretty nasty things out there.
It is human nature maybe, but for everyone good, positive thing believed into existince comes something awful believed into existince.
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"If it makes you happy and does not hurt anyone else, by all means, stick to it." - A irrational belief does not have to stick to this.
Indeed it doesn't. The general philosophical idea I have been talking about, however, does. A belief that if you eat a mud pie in a fairy ring at midsummer's night will make someone happy is a irrational belief that I agree with...a belief that eating a baby will make someone immortal is one I do not agree with. Again, I can only speak for myself. I will never defend all irrational actions...AND PLENTY OF IDEAS THAT SEEMED "RATIONAL" AND "SCIENTIFIC" AT THE TIME HAVE BEEN THE RESULT OF PLENTY OF HORRABLE ACTIONS INDEED: Eugenics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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You can believe what ever you want if you are an irrational delusional person.
As opposed to a Rationalist that believes only in consensual reality, instead of having the guts to face consenual reality armed only with faith.
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Its funny how you don't see how rational thinking is holding you back from doing what every you want to make yourself happy.
I will assume you mean
"Its funny how you don't see how irrational thinking is holding you back from doing what every you want to make yourself happy." Again, I don't mean that as an insult at all, because I am the last person to make fun of someone's spelling and/or grammar.
Anyway, what I want in life is to be a great sorcerer and be happy. Don't say it can't happen: Alister Crowly was a great sorcerer, as was Gerald Gardner.
My goal in life is to be happy, and it is one that I achieve everyday.
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No. Science and rational thinking has improve our lifestyle.
Just your opinion. The fact that Christopher McCandless choose to give up the "comforts" of the modern world and go to the Alaskan wilderness proves that the modern world, created by "progress", is not for everybody.. That is a fine example of idealism it's finest: He could not find a blank spot on the map (damn scientist got rid of them all) so what did he do? HE THROW THE MAP AWAY AND CREATED HIS OWN BLANK SPOT! He went into the woods were he lived and, eventually, died...but he was going to die anyway. The point is, HE LIVED. He died happy and his journal records that, even as he died, he was still having the time of his life. His last message was "I have lived a good life and thank the Lord. God bless you all" ...
...but, I suppose he should have just dedicated his life to solving equations behind a desk and buying yet another fast car?
What might be right for you, is not right for everyone else. Chris McCandless is proof positive that we can and should "make are own reality up" as we go along should we choose to, and in his reality, "Progress" sucked, and I can't blame him.
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But this is just my opinion, because I would rather be here with all my immunity to virus, having access to antibiotics and modern medical knowledge and technology, all the food I can eat, clean water, having the opportunity to study the universe, and chatting with people all over the world, through this amazing technology, then struggling on a peace of land, hoping that there will not be a drought, plague, or war so my family and I can survive just a little longer without suffering.
Not to mention the ever present threat of Nuclear annihilation, Global Warming, Germ Warfare, a society were technology alientates people, chemically altered food, overpopulation, an absolute lack of any place left to explore on Earth (unless you throw away the map and create somewhere to explore ) a life in which just saying "get bent" to work and living off the land is impossible thanks to it all being controled, a life were some struggle to survive while some struggle to to find meaning, a life where the very air I breath is poison and the water might give me cancer, no matter how much I boil it, a life where more species become extinct now then even when the dinosaurs were dying out...
yahh, "progess" is grand
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No one lives for very long when the go completely irrational
And as I said, rational should be kept in it's place.
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. There is no "bidding" to reason and logic. Reason and logic will tell you what is most likely true.
I can bid logic to drive me to the park, and bid logic to go away when it's time to feed the fairies.
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Using that you can get what you want quicker, and more efficiently.
What I want is to be a sorcerer. Please explain how logic and Reason can get me that more efficiently.
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Unlike someone who is completely irrational and delusional.
I am not saying "compteley" irrational, but just that rationalism is kept in place.
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You keep saying "slaves". Am I a slave, knowing that I will surely die if exposed to a huge amount of radiation?
You are a slave because you allow consenual reality dictate how you live.
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Am I a slave know the horrors of the pass wars, that we should do everything in our power to avoid it?
If you really did then you would know that science has made any future wars that might happen much, much more deadly.
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Name ONE thing that turns me into a slave, because I have learn the truth?
Exactly. You learn the truth, instead of making a truth for yourself. Hence, you are a slave to that which provided the truth that you act on, i.e., consenual reality.
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No. Being rational only dictates rational decisions. Eg. If I go and get drunk, I will need someone to drive me home or I increase the risk of killing me and others around me.
Yes, there you are using being rational. I have nothing against being rational every now and again...it's being a Rationalists (upper case "R") that I am against.
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Reality doesn't say anything I know you are delusional, but take my word, that reality doesn't command us like a slave owner.
You're right...it commands YOU like a slave owner.
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I make my own decision, based on what I know to be true.
And I make my own truth based on my decisions.
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Knowing what is fact, and what is fictions will protect you and the people around you.
Every crack down on individual rights, from Stalin to the Patriot Act, was created with the pretense of "protecting people." I would rather be unsafe and free then in a nice, safe prison any day.
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Eg. The news says the man next to you just killed 10 people, do you A, make friends, or B leave as fast as possible, C attack the person before he tries to hurt you, and a near infinite amount of other choices that varies, or combines the above.
Maybe he didn't kill 10 people. Once upon a time the news reported civil rights marches as "negro mobs". Are you suggesting I believe everything I hear on the news?
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Your notions of "slaves to reality" is nothing but a plea to emotions, but any rational person will see right through it.
Of course. Emotion is the point. To exist as a robot, or have a much shorter existince as a emotional being? I choose emotion, not reason. No way am I ever going to work in a cubicle, marry "Debra from Human Resources" and have a house, kids, or any of that other nonsense. It wouldn't make me happy.
Living in the woods, being a sorcerer, running around bare foot and talking to the spirits: even though the demons of the night might kill me, I would much rather be happy then be "rational" any day.
It is clear that you have no idea what "rational" or "rationalism" means.
It is also clear that you don't pay attention to what I replied too. If you can't remember the context of my response, go back and read it.
You can use google to educate yourself before continuing your defense on what you said in the OP.
Hence, in the pursuit of happiness, a person is, for no reason other then the joy of it, completely justified for believing in Fairies, GOD, elves, or what have you.
If it stopped there I might agree. The new testament describes Jesus' first miracle as turning water into wine at a wedding in Cana. Another one that caught my fancy was feeding 5,000 men, not counting women and children who also ate until they were all full with two fish and five loaves then gathering twelve baskets of leftover pieces of bread and scraps. Do you realize that over half of the population of this country believe that is literal? Do you know why they believe it? Because of childhood brainwashing.
When this country declared it's independence less than 10% of the population of the thirteen colonies even belonged to a church and the forebears who even claimed religion were deists not theists. Most of them scoffed at the bible. Thomas Jefferson called it a dunghill.
It's the brainwashing of innocent, gullible children that frosts my knob. If everyone would keep their fairy tales out of the schools and out of the government and do as the new testament instructs them to do...Go Into Their Closet And Close The Door when they pray...they'd never hear a word from me. I can't go to a fist fight, a building dedication or a car race without having to tolerate some half educated bible thumper standing up there before the event begins talking to the invisible man in the sky.
I was subjected to the brainwashing as a child and I was tied up tight with all that till I was over sixty years old. From now on I will speak up when I get the opportunity.
Last edited by Melvin.George; 10-19-2009 at 04:29 AM..
Reason: correction
Rational thinking, mixed with a fair bit of basic human morality, have been responsible for the greatest advances of mankind.
Farming advances, electricity, flight, medical advances, and countless other scientific examples would have never come to be if the church had its way.
Remember, it was the Roman Catholic Church who persecuted anyone who said the world was round. Columbus was in real danger of being excommunicated for saying he could sail around the world.
Science isn't perfect, but when you use a rational mind, while minding that little voice of "maybe we shouldn't do this" then great things come about.
BTW, how is rational thinking accepting the world we live in. It accepts it, and then goes to the next step of how we operate within it, and thus make it better.
I'd wager to say that the world of the Spanish inquisitions would be considered irrational, and they weren't making the world better.
Rational thinking, mixed with a fair bit of basic human morality, have been responsible for the greatest advances of mankind.
Farming advances, electricity, flight, medical advances, and countless other scientific examples would have never come to be if the church had its way.
Remember, it was the Roman Catholic Church who persecuted anyone who said the world was round. Columbus was in real danger of being excommunicated for saying he could sail around the world.
Why do people keep repeating this lie. And it is a lie, there is no other thing to call it. A Round Earth is described by Thomas Aquinas, a Doctor of the Church.
You find me any credible history book anywhere that says Columbus was in danger of excommunication for saying the world was round and I'll dance on a hat. It just didn't happen. Possibly you're mixing up heliocentrism with a Round-Earth, in which case you'd have a point, but if that were so you'd have picked Copernicus or something.
It's depressing that supposedly rational people can believe the most idiotic revisionist history to bolster themselves. Talk about delusion!
(As for reality I think mainstream science indicates there is no "local reality." Reality is like a probability wave and to collapse into a single reality requires an observer. At least that's what I gathered from reading a John Gribbin book on Schrodinger's Cat. Also certain questions can't be answered mathematically, Godel)
Why do people keep repeating this lie. And it is a lie, there is no other thing to call it. A Round Earth is described by Thomas Aquinas, a Doctor of the Church.
You find me any credible history book anywhere that says Columbus was in danger of excommunication for saying the world was round and I'll dance on a hat. It just didn't happen. )
I'll tell you one thing first hand. In 1943 I was in the fourth grade. We were taught that Columbus was warned of the peril of sailing off the edge of the world by those who financed his trip. Our class was indoctrinated into that camp...so to speak.
America is somewhat descended from England and England was sort-of the fountainhead for anti-Catholic revisionist history. Until the twentieth century it was tradition for the King of England to denounce the Catholic Church at the beginning of each year's Parliament.
Although I think the Columbus thing is more about American patriotism or something. Making America out to be so great people had to fight about it even before they knew it existed. It's like with immigrant stories. You rarely hear about the many Chinese or others who came here, didn't like it, and then went home. Or the Irish soldiers who switched to the Mexican side in the Mexican-American War. Although I went to school in the 1980s I was indoctrinating into "Americanism" like many other rural kids, but it never took root in me. It seemed pretty obvious to me that there were many other democracies, most of the world's people didn't live in the US, and most of history didn't involve the US. So the US as the end-all and be-all of everything just never reached me.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 10-19-2009 at 01:36 PM..
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Paying attention to reality has given us all the technology we have, it tells us not to walk off a cliff, or take your children to the hospital when they are sick.. at lease for the few, who believe in reality - 
) a life in which just saying "get bent" to work and living off the land is impossible thanks to it all being controled, a life were some struggle to survive while some struggle to to find meaning, a life where the very air I breath is poison and the water might give me cancer, no matter how much I boil it, a life where more species become extinct now then even when the dinosaurs were dying out...
