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First of all, VP represents a VERY small, if not practically invisible, segment of the bible believing community. In fact, as a gnostic, he would have been run out of town during the ascent of Christianity and today, many Christians would not consider him a true representative of their faith. That being said, when critics take issue with Christianity and its concepts for debate, they are RARELY ever thinking about gnostics beliefs. If anything the critic and the gnostic agree on at least one thing and that is, the Old Testament god was a tyrant. The only difference is, the gnostic actually believes such an entity actually existed while the atheist/agnostic believes no such thing.
As for "anger," mine has nothing to do with god as I feel none that I have heard of or learned about ever existed or exist. I am angry at MYSELF for ever believing the silliness which hamstrung my progress in my younger years which has left me trying to play catchup. I believed that if I placed my trust and faith in a magical being, followed his so-called "word" and put him first in all I did (prayer, fasting, dedication to church going), his blessings would follow me. In other words, he would have my back.
When you come to the painful reality that there is no one upstairs, you realize you were duped, deceived, sold a bag of hot air and in doing so, wasted valuable years chasing a pipe dream. My 'anger' arises from this and is no different from a person being upset about being scammed out of money. In that case you are angry at the person or organization that pulled a fast one on you as well as being angry at yourself for falling for whatever the scam was. You don't get angry at the product [which in this case is "god"] per se.
What I then find is that forums like these are like forums that people go to find out if something they see, read about or hear about is as good as advertised. You read the accounts of people claiming how great the product (god-Jesus) is while others present very valid arguments to the contrary, pointing to the very faulty premises.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 11-02-2009 at 10:57 PM..
I should also add that not even all Christians understand what some former believers went through. I think this is because Christianity has so many sects an variations. There are "Christians" who are today in their 40s, 50s who lived it up in their teens, 20s and 30s who look at unbelievers bitching and moaning about being locked up in church by fundy parents during THEIR younger years. They fail to see the problem there. You have other "Christians" who drop in to church here and there but who are not shy about still enjoying life by going to parties, clubs and having a few drinks here and there. They are not really missing anything. Their thing is, as long as they believe in god and live modestly, all is well. They, for the life of them, can't understand the "anger" some former believers have toward church because [said] former believers were not in a church organization that endorsed such an idea of the Christian life.
What I am getting at is that NOT all Christian churches or display of the Christian life is consistent. Some of us former believers were part of VERY strict, restrictive, legalistic almost cultish churches that promoted the idea that the "world" was to be shunned and one was to "sell out" to god. Some Christians do not or have never attended such churches. Their churches might be far more liberal and they are allowed to live their lives as they please as long as they show up on Sundays, do their various duties and maintain a belief in god. Funny thing is, the fundamentalist view such Christians with deep suspicion and refuse to consider them as "true" Christians. Conversely, the liberal Christian feel that such fundamentalists are what's wrong with how Christianity is represented to the est of the world.
So what I find is that the angrier former believers or former [forced] church goers are those who attended churches or schools that discouraged questioning, instilled fear and taught a warped idea of reality that created an isolationist mentality where one mentally checks out, living in fear of the "end times" awaiting a hero to come and rescue them from the bad, evil world. When and if these people come to their senses, they are NOT in the mood to accept, endorse, cuddle or encourage anything that resembles that fantasy world or fear, paranoia and illusions they escaped from.
I have tried to explain to vic in several threads that as soon as the christians quit trying to make laws based on THEIR religion, I, and others will leave them alone.
But, vic keeps asking the question.
It's easier for them to continue making up outlandish reasons for what they think they see rather than deal with what others are actually saying. When you've diagnosed your opponent with some sort of emotional retardation, chronic confusion due to various mental defects, or some form of autism it makes it way easier to dismiss their ideas. No point in even bothering to understand the stuff that other people are saying - they're just the thoughts of someone unsophisticated and inferior who can't see the obvious truth in the religions that billions of believers know (but can't agree on either).
It's easier for them to continue making up outlandish reasons for what they think they see rather than deal with what others are actually saying. When you've diagnosed your opponent with some sort of emotional retardation, chronic confusion due to various mental defects, or some form of autism it makes it way easier to dismiss their ideas. No point in even bothering to understand the stuff that other people are saying - they're just the thoughts of someone unsophisticated and inferior who can't see the obvious truth in the religions that billions of believers know (but can't agree on either).
Do you speak like this in real life to religious people?
The childhood you describe is practically the exact opposite of mine. My parents raised me to be not just a Christian, but a far-right fundamentalist Christian. I was taught that our particular denomination of Christianity was the correct one, and others were probably going to Hell. I would hear my dad rant and rave about everyone who wasn't exactly like him (he still does this), and all my friend's parents were the same way. In fact, as I grew older, I noticed that nearly everyone I knew was this way, so for the longest I just assumed that's what Christians were supposed to be like. It took quite a while for me to overcome what I was taught as a child, but eventually I did. And I've met some Christians who are more reminiscent of that guy in the New Testament who said to be humble and kind. Of course, the Christians I've met like that were almost exclusively from other parts of the country, not here. It would be pretty easy for me to be bitter toward Christianity, and sometimes I have to catch myself and calm down, more in real life than on this forum. When you're almost constantly surrounded by people who are as far opposite from you as possible in every imaginable way, and you can't afford to move somewhere different, it's hard not to be frustrated and angry all the time. Luckily, I can escape by going out in nature and observing animals who are usually more reasonable than us crazy humans.
Well, then you understand. All that you feel is what you feel from some Christians in Tennessee. However, if you were raised as I was, you might have a different prospective.
I am sorry to hear about you story, though. I passed through the Bible Belt once, and it was like another planet.
I think a problem with it is it's calling people something they don't call themselves or even would call themselves. Generally it's best to call people what they want to be called, when you know what that is, if you want a discussion.
Exactly. I don't see anyone referring to blacks as "negroes" anymore, despite the historic use of the word.
I have tried to explain to vic in several threads that as soon as the christians quit trying to make laws based on THEIR religion, I, and others will leave them alone.
Which Christians? Christians like the United Church of Christ, the liberal Quakers and the Episcopal Church? (all of which are pro-choice and for gay marriage) or Christians like the Southern Baptist convention?
Not all Christians are like that: for every member of the Christian Right, there is a member of the Christian Left.
First of all, VP represents a VERY small, if not practically invisible, segment of the bible believing community. In fact, as a gnostic, he would have been run out of town during the ascent of Christianity and today, many Christians would not consider him a true representative of their faith. That being said, when critics take issue with Christianity and its concepts for debate, they are RARELY ever thinking about gnostics beliefs. If anything the critic and the gnostic agree on at least one thing and that is, the Old Testament god was a tyrant. The only difference is, the gnostic actually believes such an entity actually existed while the atheist/agnostic believes no such thing.
I will admit that Gnosticism is not very large, but I think it is dishonest to say that not literalist are a very small segment of Christianity.
The United Church of Christ (1.1 Million members) the Episcopal Church (2.2 Million members) Quakers (500,000 members) and a bunch of other churches are not literalists or fundamentalists.
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As for "anger," mine has nothing to do with god as I feel none that I have heard of or learned about ever existed or exist. I am angry at MYSELF for ever believing the silliness which hamstrung my progress in my younger years which has left me trying to play catchup. I believed that if I placed my trust and faith in a magical being, followed his so-called "word" and put him first in all I did (prayer, fasting, dedication to church going), his blessings would follow me. In other words, he would have my back.
Then deal with that for youself. Some of us have actually been happier with a religion then without one.
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When you come to the painful reality that there is no one upstairs, you realize you were duped, deceived, sold a bag of hot air and in doing so, wasted valuable years chasing a pipe dream. My 'anger' arises from this and is no different from a person being upset about being scammed out of money. In that case you are angry at the person or organization that pulled a fast one on you as well as being angry at yourself for falling for whatever the scam was. You don't get angry at the product [which in this case is "god"] per se.
I did not "pull the fast one over your eyes" nor did Christianity as a whole. If you have beef, take it up with those who "scammed" you.
Also, if I ever did take up the "hard sciences" and tried to become an Empiricist, that right there would be wasting years of my life. I just look into it, see what it's about and say "no thanks" before I ever jump into it. It is not our fault you did not research religion before you got involved with it.
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What I then find is that forums like these are like forums that people go to find out if something they see, read about or hear about is as good as advertised. You read the accounts of people claiming how great the product (god-Jesus) is while others present very valid arguments to the contrary, pointing to the very faulty premises.
One person's God is not another person's God, and, for that matter, one person's Jesus is not another person's Jesus. You yourself said it: Gnosticism is in the minority. I am not trying to convert you in saying this (Gnostics usually don't try to convert people, because you can't make someone FEEL something) but, I must say, you did not worship my God or my Jesus (who doesn't really asked to be worshipped) nor did, I can assume, you worship the God of the United Church of Christ or the God of the Deists or the God of Wiccans. So do not assume you know how it "all is a fraud".
That would be like me having pancakes and only pancakes at one restaurant exclusively and yet knowing full and well that "all breakfast food is disgusting"
Okay, the pancakes I had at IHOP were disgusting, but what about the steak and Eggs at the Colonial Diner? Just because you tried one type of one dish (bible thumping Christianity) does not mean that you can speak with any authority against the entire cuisene (breakfast food) especially to those who are eating crepes (Wicca) or Steak and Eggs (Taoism) or the mix berry oatmeal (Hinduism) or the breakfast sandwich (Deism) or the whole grain pancakes at a different restaurant (Gnosticism)
Okay, now I'm hungry...
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