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You and I both know that the herodian gate isn't blocked up. It was destroyed. You KNOW that. So now the gate has to be somethin else. Either the buried one or the later one or 'Hallelujiah! Both!'
I looked at that supposed buried east gate and it's a bit like the ark and the undersea cities. There isn't anything substantial to go on. Just an arch no-one can see or date. We don't even know whether it's blocked. And suddenly the later gate is somehow sharing its identity with the later one built after the destruction of the temple. Since our first discussion, the arguments have been reworked from that later gate is the one, to it isn't the one and the one that is buried to the real one is buried but the later one which isn't the one is also the one because it's blocked and who could have worked that out but God?
I do not believe that buried arch can possibly even have been an entrance to Zurubbabel's Temple. That would require that the first temple would have to have been built below the level of the temple and Ezekiel's vision requires a clear view from the east gate through the porch gate to the scenery beyond. Give it up. The buried gate can't be the sactuary gate and the sanctuary gate can't be the porch gate and the present blocked gate isn't the gate.
This is all relevant to the thread because the proofs of prophecy to history to archaoligy all turn out to be very flimsy when examined.
There is no historical support fro Jesus other than Tacitus (and that only mentions his execution and the Christians) There is no support for advanced science in the Bible, since the supposed references to convection, undersea volcanic vents and entropy turn out to be vaguely matchable to poetic terms in Job or Psalms. The prophecies of Babylon and Tyre turn out actually to be wrong. Banylon was never destroyed until late Roman times and Tyre remained an important port and still is.
There is no reason to suppose that other prophecy is any better than that as it is either workable as history (if not provably so) or it hasn't happened. So it can be claimed as Yet To Come. Sure, one can quotemine the Bible and find predictions of anything one wants, particularly if the predictions are no better than Matthew's and Luke's garbled prophecies of Judas' death.
Yes, I accept that is what is wrong. It's understandable. I personally can't read Ezekiel and see it as anything other that a plan for a rebuilt temple and the rules and regulations about it. One needs the eye of Faith to see it as a coded prophecy of Jesus walking in through the wrong gate which has miraculously become the right one because the right one can't be the right one.
Genesis is a creation myth. There is no shred of evidence for Exodus and increasing evidence against. The OT history is well enough apart from finding ingenious ways of saying it's all God's plan whether they win or lose. We saw the same ingenuity recently in explaining away the Tsunami.
Daniel is demonstrably retrospective. Paul is a perverter of whatever message the disciples had so as to extend the Promise of Abraham to his Gentiles aa much as to the Jews and the Gospels, in working up a much - needed story, not only raided the OT for screenplay but went further than Paul and pretty much said the Jews were God's enemies.
It's clearly bosh to me, Campbell, though I know your Faith makes you want to believe it. I have to go with the evidence and your evidence doesn't come anywhere near stacking up. Without Faith you'd see that, too and that, I agree, is what's wrong.
So, why can't I just leave you to your Faith? Well, I would, but I have to think of others. They deserve to have both sides of the argument put so they can make an informed decision about the evidence. And we have to do that.
The prophecy tells you, (that it would not be the Herodian Gate that would be sealed up). How can you miss that? The prophecy tells us, that a Gate would be attached to the old Gate. And the old Gate is the one where the Lord had passed by. Jesus was the (LORD). And the old Herodian Gate was the one Jesus passed by many times when He was alive. And that was the Gate that was buried shortly after Christ died on the cross when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. Yet the prophecy states, the Prince to come would enter, (BY THE WAY OF THE PORCH OF THAT GATE). When the Romans buried the Herodian Gate, the only other East Gate that was built after that, was in the 1500s. Yet, the Gate Christ would enter in the future, was not the old Herodian Gate, but the newer Porch Gate that was added on later. And that is what the prophecy tells you. And it was the Porch Gate that was to be sealed. The same Gate that we see sealed today, is the Porch Gate. And the foundation for the Porch Gate today, is the old Herodian Gate, the same Gate Christ had passed by many times when He was alive. I saw pictures of the top of the old Herodian Gate before they covered it over, this is not rocket science here. Do you really think after Christ died on the cross that they took down this massive old Herodian Gate so the prophecy could not be fulfilled? After Christ died, Jerusalem only existed for 37 more years. And it's pretty obvious from all accounts, the Old Herodian Gate is there, only buried.
On page six of the link below, there is a picture showing the old gate beneath the present day Porch Gate.
The Third TEMPLE Entrance In Alignment With The East Gate (http://www.excel.net/~hoy/eastgate.html - broken link)
And I don't have faith because I want to believe. I have faith, because I have already experience Christ reality.
The prophecy tells you, (that it would not be the Herodian Gate that would be sealed up). How can you miss that? The prophecy tells us, that a Gate would be attached to the old Gate. And the old Gate is the one where the Lord had passed by. Jesus was the (LORD). And the old Herodian Gate was the one Jesus passed by many times when He was alive. And that was the Gate that was buried shortly after Christ died on the cross when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. Yet the prophecy states, the Prince to come would enter, (BY THE WAY OF THE PORCH OF THAT GATE). When the Romans buried the Herodian Gate, the only other East Gate that was built after that, was in the 1500s. Yet, the Gate Christ would enter in the future, was not the old Herodian Gate, but the newer Porch Gate that was added on later. And that is what the prophecy tells you. And it was the Porch Gate that was to be sealed. The same Gate that we see sealed today, is the Porch Gate. And the foundation for the Porch Gate today, is the old Herodian Gate, the same Gate Christ had passed by many times when He was alive. I saw pictures of the top of the old Herodian Gate before they covered it over, this is not rocket science here. Do you really think after Christ died on the cross that they took down this massive old Herodian Gate so the prophecy could not be fulfilled? After Christ died, Jerusalem only existed for 37 more years. And it's pretty obvious from all accounts, the Old Herodian Gate is there, only buried.
On page six of the link below, there is a picture showing the old gate beneath the present day Porch Gate.
The Third TEMPLE Entrance In Alignment With The East Gate (http://www.excel.net/~hoy/eastgate.html - broken link)
And I don't have faith because I want to believe. I have faith, because I have already experience Christ reality.
It doesn't matter whether you have Faith because you want to believe or that you want to believe because you have faith. What matters is that because you have Faith, you are unable to objectively evaluate information, data and facts concerning religious matters.
I have explained this before but I don't mind doing again - also for the benefit of those who might been persuaded that this is some sort of valid prophecy.
Let us run over Ezekiel's temple description again:
"5 And behold there was a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits and a handbreadth: and he measured the breadth of the building one reed, and the height one reed. 6 And he came to the gate that looked toward the east, and he went up the steps thereof: and he measured the breadth of the threshold of the gate one reed, that is, one threshold was one reed broad; 7 And every little chamber was one reed long, and one reed broad: and between the little chambers were five cubits"
(40 5.) wall of the 'house' - outer wall. This corresponds to the modern blocked 'solomon's porch'. In Roman times it was in the outer wall as seems to be the case here as the guided tour must be from outside to inside until we get to the Sanctuary.
"17 And he brought me into the outward court, and behold there were chambers, and a pavement of stone in the court round about: thirty chambers encompassed the pavement. There were chambers... Gazophylacia, so called, because the priests and Levites kept in them the stores and vessels that belonged to the temple."
40 17. From the porch gate (solomon's porch) looking east into the outer court (profane court). Chambers for the stores and vessels.
"32 And he brought me into the inner court by the way of the east: and he measured the gate according to the former measures. 33 The little chamber thereof, and the front thereof, and the porch thereof as before: and the windows thereof, and the porches thereof round about it was fifty cubits long, and five and twenty cubits broad. 34 And the porch thereof, that is, of the outward court: and the graven palm trees in the front thereof on this side and on that side: and the going up thereof was by eight steps."
40 32. gate of the inner court. looks towards the outer court. then to the east gate
40 38 at each gate sacrifices are prepared.
"38 And at every chamber was a door in the forefronts of the gates: there they washed the holocaust. 39 And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side: that the holocaust, and
the sin offering, and the trespass offering might be slain thereon. "
40. outside each gate are the chambers of the singers (Levites) s. gate for the ward-watching priests, the N. gate for the zadokites.
"44 And without the inner gate were the chambers of the singing men in the inner court, which was on the side of the gate that looketh to the north: and their prospect was towards the south, one at the side of the east gate, which looketh toward the north. 45 And he said to me: This chamber, which looketh toward the south shall be for the priests that watch in the wards of the temple. 46 But the chamber that looketh towards the north shall be for the priests that watch over the ministry of the altar. These are the sons of Sadoc, who among the sons of Levi, come near to the Lord."
41. 1 Then to the temple altar. This is the most Holy place. Temple and sanctuary has two doors.
"41. 1. Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle."
"4 So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place."
" 22 The altar of wood was three cubits high, and the length thereof two cubits; and the corners thereof, and the length thereof, and the walls thereof, were of wood: and he said unto me, This is the table that is before the LORD.
23 And the temple and the sanctuary had two doors."
42 1-14 outer court towards the north. Ezekiel is talking about the changing of clothes in the Temple court before going into the outer (profane) court. That has a wall 500 reeds (3000, cubits) long dividing off the sanctuary from the 'profane place'
"42, 1 Then he brought me forth into the outer court, the way toward the north: and he brought me into the chamber that was over against the separate place, and which was before the building toward the north. 2 Before the length of a hundred cubits was the north door, and the breadth was fifty cubits....
14 When the priests enter therein, then shall they not go out of the holy place into the outer court, but there they shall lay their garments wherein they minister; for they are holy; and shall put on other garments, and shall approach to those things which are for the people."
Note that the gate that faces east from the outer court to outside the temple compound corresponds to solomons' porch of the Herodian temple (destroyed in the jewish war) and the Byzantine or Turkish blocked gate that is the subject of the east gate prophecy.
"43. 1 Then he led me to the gate which faces the east,
2 and there I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. I heard a sound like the roaring of many waters, and the earth shone with his glory. 3 The vision was like that which I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and like that which I had seen by the river Chebar. I fell prone 4 as the glory of the LORD entered the temple by way of the gate which faces the east,"
(43 1. this might be the east gate (Solomons' porch) but could also be the east gate of the sanctuary 3- 7 describes the spirit of God (shekinah) entering the sanctuary (temple)
"7 The voice said to me: Son of man, this is where my throne shall be, this is where I will set the soles of my feet; here I will dwell among the Israelites forever. Never again shall they and their kings profane my holy name with their harlotries and with the corpses of their kings (their high places)."
43 7 No more kings to profane the sanctuary.
43-12 Is on the rules of the temple,dimensions of the altar, procedures for sacrifice.
"43.11 make known to them the form and design of the temple, its exits and entrances, all its statutes and laws; write these down for them to see, that they may carefully observe all its laws and statutes. 12 This is the law of the temple: its whole surrounding area on the mountain top shall be most sacred."
44 1. back to the outer gate of the sanctuary. the one facing east. It is certainly the east gate of the temple (sanctuary) as it remains shut and only the prince (High priest - as God has said no more kings) can sit inside and eat with God. This is the one that remains shut
"1.Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. 3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way". 4 Then the man brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple. I looked and saw the glory of the LORD filling the temple of the LORD, and I fell facedown."
Ezekiel is certainly describing the gates into the sanctuary (temple) and it is east gate of the temple that is shut and it does not refer to the outer wall gate leading from the profane place (in Jesus' time, the court of the Gentiles) across the Kedron to the mount of Olives.
44 5 -10 is about the detestable foreigners
"Enough of your detestable practices, O house of Israel! 7 In addition to all your other detestable practices, you brought foreigners uncircumcised in heart and flesh into my sanctuary, desecrating my temple while you offered me food, fat and blood, and you broke my covenant. 8 Instead of carrying out your duty in regard to my holy things, you put others in charge of my sanctuary. 9 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites."
The rest is about procedures.
It is clear that, even if you argue that the gate that is shut is not the destroyed Herodian gate but is actually one buried underneath the level of where any gate should be, and is also somehow the later - built blocked 'Golden gate' (on the site of the Herodian Solomon's porch), none of them are the closed gate of the sanctuary which Ezekiel is talking about. Moreover, he isn't talking about a gate being blocked up for some military reason by Julian or Suleiman, he is talking about the doors of the temple being closed for religious reasons, not bricked up.
Campbell, do you see that that the east gate 'prophecy' isn't even close?
[quote=AREQUIPA;11646514]It doesn't matter whether you have Faith because you want to believe or that you want to believe because you have faith. What matters is that because you have Faith, you are unable to objectively evaluate information, data and facts concerning religious matters.
I have explained this before but I don't mind doing again - also for the benefit of those who might been persuaded that this is some sort of valid prophecy.
You say it does not refer to the outer wall Gate?
Ezekiel 44:1 Then the man brought me back to the east gateway in the (OUTER WALL OF THE TEMPLE AREA,) but it was closed. And the Lord said to me, "This gate must remain closed; it will never again be opened. No one will ever open it and pass through,
It appears, your denial of the prophecy runs so deep, you just skip over what is clearly written.
You say I am unable to objectively evaluate information? Well, I'm still able to read what the prophecy has clearly stated. Oh, and it is a valid prophecy, and what does not appear to be valid to me, is your opinion. LOL
It doesn't matter whether you have Faith because you want to believe or that you want to believe because you have faith. What matters is that because you have Faith, you are unable to objectively evaluate information, data and facts concerning religious matters.
I have explained this before but I don't mind doing again - also for the benefit of those who might been persuaded that this is some sort of valid prophecy.
You say it does not refer to the outer wall Gate?
Ezekiel 44:1 Then the man brought me back to the east gateway in the (OUTER WALL OF THE TEMPLE AREA,) but it was closed. And the Lord said to me, "This gate must remain closed; it will never again be opened. No one will ever open it and pass through,
It appears, your denial of the prophecy runs so deep, you just skip over what is clearly written.
You say I am unable to objectively evaluate information? Well, I'm still able to read what the prophecy has clearly stated. Oh, and it is a valid prophecy, and what does not appear to be valid to me, is your opinion. LOL
Campbell, you seem to quotemine the Bible as well. You also seem to (Paraphrase-Rewite) it to make it fit what you want.
(OUTER WALL OF THE TEMPLE AREA,) is actually outer gate of the sanctuary, not the outer wall of the whole temple complex. For one thing, If the prince or anyone else tried to walk out of it or sacrifice outside of Solomon's porch (see below), he'd go base over apex into the Kedron.
Read it again. He is taken from the porch through the profane area to the holy area to where the altar for burned offerings stands in front of the sanctuary. And the LORD comes in through the 'East gate' (not specific which one but it must be all three) and sits down in the sanctuary.
The sanctury. The temple itself with its east door in which only the High Priest is allowed.
"441.Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut."
The Sanctuary has two doors. The inner closing off the Holy of Holies and
the outer door. That's the way it was in the Herodian temple and is what Ezekiel is talking about here.
" 3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the
portico of the gateway and go out the same way."
4 Then the man brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple. I looked and saw the glory of the LORD filling the temple of the LORD, and I fell facedown."
I can understand, because there is a bit of wandering around, that you could argue that he was taken to the gate of the outer wall and then by the north gate of the sanctuary wall to the Temple. However, it must mean walking around to the front of the Sanctuary by way of a north door in the Temple itself or possibly in the sanctuary - area wall.
But it can't be Solomon's portico which is in the wall of the outer court. This 'gate' is the east gate of the sanctuary itself. Moreover, it is foolish to talk of only the prince sitting inside Solomons' porch and dining with God. Every person who came into the Temple went through Solomon's porch (1) in the time of the first and second temple.
Look at the plans of Herod's Temple. It explains the way the temple worked. I know it was not built by Ezekiel but it was built by priests trained in building. It fits Ezekiel so well as regards structure and rules that it must have been built with Ezekiel in mind.
Solomon's porch really can't be the Sanctuary gate that is shut.
I think I do need to check Strong's concordances for Prince and sanctuary, but the context alone is persuasive that it can't be a real king-type - prince (and not Jesus, of course) nor the outer wall of the profane place or, in Herodian times, the Court of the Gentiles.
"Sanctuary Qodesh ko'-desh
Definition
apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness
apartness, sacredness, holiness
of God
of places
of things
set-apartness, separateness"
That doesn't help too much.
"Temple -Heykal hay-kawl'
Definition
palace, temple, nave, sanctuary
palace
temple (palace of God as king)
hall, nave (of Ezekiel's temple)
temple (of heavenly temple)"
And yet the two terms are used together in the context of the actual temple itself rather than the compound. And I can't see how Qodesh could be applied to what must undeniably be the outer gate of the court of the gentiles in Herod's time and the 'profane place' in the Ezekiel temple. It's clear fromthe description that the holy area is separated off from the profane
Eze 41:21
The posts of the temple were squared, and the face of the sanctuary; the appearance of the one as the appearance of the other.
The Prince is 'Nazi' high up or captain or leader or governor. But It must relate to the leader or captain of priests.
Eze 46:12
"Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth and after his going forth one shall shut the gate."
This simply cannot be Solomon's porch. Even if one argues the temple compound east wall where the holocaust (burned offering) is prepared, but not burned - that's on the Altar in front of the Santuary gate - that is still not Solomon's porch. And that was not ritually shut in the Herodian temple at least.
(1) Koff..well, of course there were other ways in, but I mean that it was a public entrance.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-17-2009 at 11:45 AM..
Reason: A bit of a tidy up
Campbell, you seem to quotemine the Bible as well. You also seem to (Paraphrase-Rewite) it to make it fit what you want.
(OUTER WALL OF THE TEMPLE AREA,) is actually outer gate of the sanctuary, not the outer wall of the whole temple complex. For one thing, If the prince or anyone else tried to walk out of it or sacrifice outside of Solomon's porch (see below), he'd go base over apex into the Kedron.
Read it again. He is taken from the porch through the profane area to the holy area to where the altar for burned offerings stands in front of the sanctuary. And the LORD comes in through the 'East gate' (not specific which one but it must be all three) and sits down in the sanctuary.
The sanctury. The temple itself with its east door in which only the High Priest is allowed.
"441.Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut."
The Sanctuary has two doors. The inner closing off the Holy of Holies and
the outer door. That's the way it was in the Herodian temple and is what Ezekiel is talking about here.
" 3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the
portico of the gateway and go out the same way."
4 Then the man brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple. I looked and saw the glory of the LORD filling the temple of the LORD, and I fell facedown."
I can understand, because there is a bit of wandering around, that you could argue that he was taken to the gate of the outer wall and then by the north gate of the sanctuary wall to the Temple. However, it must mean walking around to the front of the Sanctuary by way of a north door in the Temple itself or possibly in the sanctuary - area wall.
But it can't be Solomon's portico which is in the wall of the outer court. This 'gate' is the east gate of the sanctuary itself. Moreover, it is foolish to talk of only the prince sitting inside Solomons' porch and dining with God. Every person who came into the Temple went through Solomon's porch (1) in the time of the first and second temple.
Look at the plans of Herod's Temple. It explains the way the temple worked. I know it was not built by Ezekiel but it was built by priests trained in building. It fits Ezekiel so well as regards structure and rules that it must have been built with Ezekiel in mind.
Solomon's porch really can't be the Sanctuary gate that is shut.
I think I do need to check Strong's concordances for Prince and sanctuary, but the context alone is persuasive that it can't be a real king-type - prince (and not Jesus, of course) nor the outer wall of the profane place or, in Herodian times, the Court of the Gentiles.
"Sanctuary Qodesh ko'-desh
Definition
apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness
apartness, sacredness, holiness
of God
of places
of things
set-apartness, separateness"
That doesn't help too much.
"Temple -Heykal hay-kawl'
Definition
palace, temple, nave, sanctuary
palace
temple (palace of God as king)
hall, nave (of Ezekiel's temple)
temple (of heavenly temple)"
And yet the two terms are used together in the context of the actual temple itself rather than the compound. And I can't see how Qodesh could be applied to what must undeniably be the outer gate of the court of the gentiles in Herod's time and the 'profane place' in the Ezekiel temple. It's clear fromthe description that the holy area is separated off from the profane
Eze 41:21
The posts of the temple were squared, and the face of the sanctuary; the appearance of the one as the appearance of the other.
The Prince is 'Nazi' high up or captain or leader or governor. But It must relate to the leader or captain of priests.
Eze 46:12
"Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth and after his going forth one shall shut the gate."
This simply cannot be Solomon's porch. Even if one argues the temple compound east wall where the holocaust (burned offering) is prepared, but not burned - that's on the Altar in front of the Santuary gate - that is still not Solomon's porch. And that was not ritually shut in the Herodian temple at least.
(1) Koff..well, of course there were other ways in, but I mean that it was a public entrance.
There was only one time in history, that allowed for God to walk past Jerusalem's East Gate. And that was when Christ was on the earth. And that Gate was buried by the Romans. Then in the 1500s, another Gate was built right on top of that Gate, and that Gate, then became the Porch Gate. And as the prophecy clearly tells us, the Porch Gate would be sealed up.
And now you are saying the outerwall of the temple area, has now become the outer Gate of the Sanctuary? What total nonsense. The Bible makes it very clear that it is not the outer Gate of the Sanctuary. And only someone who can ignore what the Bible clearly states, could believe anything else. Clearly the Bible states (outer wall of the temple area), if it had been the Sanctuary, it would of said, (the outer wall of the Sanctuary). And Gods future Sanctuary, will not be something created by man. So you can put your ruler away. Gods future Sanctuary, will be a city that decends from out of the heavens. When the Prince enters this city, it will be a city built, and established by GOD HIMSELF. And when the Bible speaks of the Prince only eating in the Porch with God, that was not speaking of the historical past. It is speaking, of the future.
And your belief that this Gate cannot be the Gate spoken of in the Bible, is only a belief held by you, because you don't want to believe the Bilbe. Even the Orthodox Jews in Israel who know the Old Testement Prophecy will tell you. THIS, IS THE GATE OF PROPHECY.
Last edited by Campbell34; 11-18-2009 at 04:39 AM..
"And god speculated; "When the sun rises and the goats bleet, I shall cause a rainstorm. In the future..."
And behold! Glory to God; it came to pass!
Tom quoted:
Quote:
"And when the Bible speaks of the Prince only eating in the Porch with God, that was not speaking of the historical past. It is speaking, of the future."
When, exactly. (It's what we call a true prophesy, not just an ambiguous bit of silly fakery-nonsense. And oddly, when you apply such demanding limitations, not a single one of them has ever come true.).
So again; Exactly when. Date. Time. Year. Location.
There was only one time in history, that allowed for God to walk past Jerusalem's East Gate. And that was when Christ was on the earth. And that Gate was buried by the Romans. Then in the 1500s, another Gate was built right on top of that Gate, and that Gate, then became the Porch Gate. And as the prophecy clearly tells us, the Porch Gate would be sealed up.
And now you are saying the outerwall of the temple area, has now become the outer Gate of the Sanctuary? What total nonsense. The Bible makes it very clear that it is not the outer Gate of the Sanctuary. And only someone who can ignore what the Bible clearly states, could believe anything else. Clearly the Bible states (outer wall of the temple area), if it had been the Sanctuary, it would of said, (the outer wall of the Sanctuary). And Gods future Sanctuary, will not be something created by man. So you can put your ruler away. Gods future Sanctuary, will be a city that decends from out of the heavens. When the Prince enters this city, it will be a city built, and established by GOD HIMSELF. And when the Bible speaks of the Prince only eating in the Porch with God, that was not speaking of the historical past. It is speaking, of the future.
And your belief that this Gate cannot be the Gate spoken of in the Bible, is only a belief held by you, because you don't want to believe the Bilbe. Even the Orthodox Jews in Israel who know the Old Testement Prophecy will tell you. THIS, IS THE GATE OF PROPHECY.
Campbell, please, please, do put your desperate attempts to maintain your faith in this prophecy aside as read what ezekiel says:
44."1.Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened."
Outer gate of the sactuary. It is not the gate of the outer wall of the temple area. Ezekiel does not say what you say it says. I am not saying that the outer wall of the temple are has become the outer gate of the santuary, I am saying they are two differerent gates. So is ezekiel. Your lack of fidelity in reporting both what I say and what Ezekiel says must show that there is something wrong with your thought processes. If I believed in the Bible I would not dare to rewrite it to make it say what I wanted. Read, please, the whole of Ezekiel. It will make it plain.
I was going to point out that Herod had the whole mount extended with a platform so the present blocked gate it beyond where the east outer gate of the first temple would have been, but I suppose you'll say that Ezekiel was prophecying the later gate.
Ok. I can see what you are arguing. It has removes the prophecy a step or two from the actual gate that Jesus supposedly walked through to one that was built afterwards. I'd say it is pretty clear that the closed gate is the porch gate of the temple that Ezekiel had known or heard about at least or one that he was envisaging and it is stated to be the porch gate of the sanctuary, not the outer wall.
I have explained that it couldn't be because there is no way sacrifices could be prepared much less burned there, in the profane area. The altar was smack in front of the Porch gate of the sanctuary. I don't see how it could be plainer.
Campbell, please, please, do put your desperate attempts to maintain your faith in this prophecy aside as read what ezekiel says:
44."1.Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened."
Outer gate of the sactuary. It is not the gate of the outer wall of the temple area. Ezekiel does not say what you say it says. I am not saying that the outer wall of the temple are has become the outer gate of the santuary, I am saying they are two differerent gates. So is ezekiel. Your lack of fidelity in reporting both what I say and what Ezekiel says must show that there is something wrong with your thought processes. If I believed in the Bible I would not dare to rewrite it to make it say what I wanted. Read, please, the whole of Ezekiel. It will make it plain.
I was going to point out that Herod had the whole mount extended with a platform so the present blocked gate it beyond where the east outer gate of the first temple would have been, but I suppose you'll say that Ezekiel was prophecying the later gate.
Ok. I can see what you are arguing. It has removes the prophecy a step or two from the actual gate that Jesus supposedly walked through to one that was built afterwards. I'd say it is pretty clear that the closed gate is the porch gate of the temple that Ezekiel had known or heard about at least or one that he was envisaging and it is stated to be the porch gate of the sanctuary, not the outer wall.
I have explained that it couldn't be because there is no way sacrifices could be prepared much less burned there, in the profane area. The altar was smack in front of the Porch gate of the sanctuary. I don't see how it could be plainer.
Well, there is an old saying that tells us, we should not put all our eggs in one basket. And when we speak of the various Bible translations that have existed over time. Well, this is a saying we should consider. In the beginning, the first Scripture presented was fully accurate. And most translations today, give us God's Words accurately enought. However, on the fine points, we often have to look deeper. And such would be the case of Ezekiel 44:1
Well, the first thing we need to understand, is that Ezekiel is telling us what he is viewing, came to him in a vision. Ezekiel 43:3 "And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw,"
So we know, that what Ezekiel is viewing, was not something that was yet established. And what is being shown to Him, is something that will occur in a future time.
Now, it appears to me, you are looking at one translation, of one verse, and pretty much hanging your hat on it. Of course the verse in question states.
Ezekiel 44:1
"Then the man brought me back to the outer Gate of the Sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut."
Now hear is where those fine points come in. Most Christians could live their entire life, and never once question the wording here. Yet, if you were one who did not believe the Bible, wording becomes very important. And so it should.
As we read some of the other translations, it appears those translators took a little more care in expressing what was actually stated. This can be viewed in the Contemporary English Version.
Ezekiel 44:1 "Then the man took me back to the (OUTER COURTYARD) near the East Gate of the (Temple Area).
Holman Christian Standard Bible.
Ezekiel 44:1 "The man then brought me back toward the Sanctuary's (OUTER GATE) that faces east,"
New Living Translation.
Ezekiel 44:1 "Then the man brought me back to the east gateway (IN THE OUTER WALL) of the Temple area, but it was closed.
When you consider the other translations it become very clear, that the Gate in question, is not connected to the Temple itself, but is some distance away. There is nothing wrong with my thought processes. I just consider all the other translations, and do not limit myself, to the most narrow and most questionable view. Clearly the Gate is found in the outer wall of the Temple area. And this is clearly stated in the New Living Translation. And the Contemporary English Version states it will be found near the Outer Courtyard near the East Gate of the Temple (AREA). Not the Temple, the Temple area. And other students of Scriptures, have come to that same conclusion. And that is why most who closely consider this prophecy, see the Sealed East Gate for what it is. And that would be, the Gate that is waiting for Gods return.
Last edited by Campbell34; 11-18-2009 at 04:18 PM..
Other students of Scripture have done the samething, and that is why most who closely consider such Scriptures today, see the Sealed East Gate for what it is. And that would be the Gate, that is waiting for Gods return.
So what's behind this gate that they need to keep it sealed, El Toro figurines?
Well, there is an old saying that tells us, we should not put all our eggs in one basket. And when we speak of the various Bible translations that have existed over time. Well, this is a saying we should consider. In the beginning, the first Scripture presented was fully accurate. And most translations today, give us God's Words accurately enought. However, on the fine points, we often have to look deeper. And such would be the case of Ezekiel 44:1
Well, the first thing we need to understand, is that Ezekiel is telling us what he is viewing, came to him in a vision. Ezekiel 43:3 "And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw,"
So we know, that what Ezekiel is viewing, was not something that was yet established. And what is being shown to Him, is something that will occur in a future time.
Now, it appears to me, you are looking at one translation, of one verse, and pretty much hanging your hat on it. Of course the verse in question states.
Ezekiel 44:1
"Then the man brought me back to the outer Gate of the Sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut."
Now hear is where those fine points come in. Most Christians could live their entire life, and never once question the wording here. Yet, if you were one who did not believe the Bible, wording becomes very important. And so it should.
As we read some of the other translations, it appears those translators took a little more care in expressing what was actually stated. This can be viewed in the Contemporary English Version.
Ezekiel 44:1 "Then the man took me back to the (OUTER COURTYARD) near the East Gate of the (Temple Area).
Holman Christian Standard Bible.
Ezekiel 44:1 "The man then brought me back toward the Sanctuary's (OUTER GATE) that faces east,"
New Living Translation.
Ezekiel 44:1 "Then the man brought me back to the east gateway (IN THE OUTER WALL) of the Temple area, but it was closed.
When you consider the other translations it become very clear, that the Gate in question, is not connected to the Temple itself, but is some distance away. There is nothing wrong with my thought processes. I just consider all the other translations, and do not limit myself, to the most narrow and most questionable view. Clearly the Gate is found in the outer wall of the Temple area. And this is clearly stated in the New Living Translation. And the Contemporary English Version states it will be found near the Outer Courtyard near the East Gate of the Temple (AREA). Not the Temple, the Temple area. And other students of Scriptures, have come to that same conclusion. And that is why most who closely consider this prophecy, see the Sealed East Gate for what it is. And that would be, the Gate that is waiting for Gods return.
It is not a question of translation - shopping. It is a question of reading the whole thing, looking at plans of the first and second temples and understanding how they worked and deciding what was where.
Quote:
Now, it appears to me, you are looking at one translation, of one verse, and pretty much hanging your hat on it.
You know me better than that. I have evaluated the whole text and followed the guided tour and concluded that the shut gate has to be the outer one of the temple sanctuary itself. Translations from the hebrew were given and it came back to the context.
Now, if you could show me that Ezekiel was talking about a gate or door in the outer wall being closed, I'd accept that. You know the way I work. But the way it looks to me from the description is that it as to be connected with the sacrificial area and that puts it right away from the outer wall. That's even without all the problems about Herod's extension of the mound and whether Ezekiel could possibly be talking about a gate built in Byzantine or later times.
I take your point about the various readings and I note that going round to the east gate by the north gate is odd because I wouldn't have thought that the sanctuary had a north gate. And I agree, as I said in my original post on the east gate thing, that Ezekiel appears to be imagining this temple. However, it matches the Herodian 2nd temple pretty well and I gather it follows the Temple of Zerubbabel, though I haven't studied that in detail. But imaginary or real, I think following it, you have to see that we start at the outside, going up the steps all the while until we get to the temple, sanctuary or 'house'.
42. 15 ¶ Now when he had made an end of measuring the inner house, he brought me forth toward the gate whose prospect is toward the east, and measured it round about. 16 He measured the east side with the measuring reed, five hundred reeds, with the measuring reed round about. 17 He measured the north side, five hundred reeds, with the measuring reed round about. 18 He measured the south side, five hundred reeds, with the measuring reed. 19 He turned about to the west side, and measured five hundred reeds, with the measuring reed.
20 He measured it by the four sides: it had a wall round about, five hundred reeds long, and five hundred broad, to make a separation between the sanctuary and the profane place.
43.1 Then he led me to the gate which faces the east, 2 and there I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. I heard a sound like the roaring of many waters, and the earth shone with his glory. 3 The vision was like that which I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and like that which I had seen by the river Chebar. I fell prone 4 as the glory of the LORD entered the temple by way of the gate which faces the east, 5 but spirit lifted me up and brought me to the inner court. And I saw that the temple was filled with the glory of the LORD. 6 Then I heard someone speaking to me from the temple, while the man stood beside me.
Here there is a clear separation of the 'profane' outer court and the 'sacred' inner one where the levites sang, the sacrifices were prepared and the priests had to change their robes to go into the outer court.
It isn't clear whether it is the east gate of the outer wall or the inner that is the one where 'the LORD entered the temple by way of the gate which faces the east,' but that apparently isn't the sanctuary gate. It could be Solomon's porch/golden gate.
From then on it is all about the dimensions of the temple itself and the rules for sacrifice.
17 The upper ledge was also a square: fourteen cubits long and fourteen cubits wide. The lower ledge, likewise a square, was sixteen cubits long and sixteen cubits wide, with a half-cubit rim surrounding it. And there was a base of one cubit all around. The steps of the altar face the east. 18 Then he said to me: Son of man, thus says the Lord GOD: These are the statutes for the altar when it is set up for the offering of holocausts upon it and for the sprinkling of blood against it.
Those measurement are too small to be anything but the dimensions of a single building, so translations aside, this is the Sanctuary-temple-House they are talking about. Then:
1.Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me..
In the context this really does look like the door of the temple itself, especially as it is the only one that could be feasibly kept shut except when the 'prince' entered to take tea with God.
I can see your argument, but it depends on overlooking a number of objections, both to the text itself and to the present situation on temple mount. It is also not valid to say that the situation could only be fulfilled when Jesus appears and walks through the solid blocks of the Golden gate. It works perfectly well in the context of temple ritual.
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"And god speculated; "When the sun rises and the goats bleet, I shall cause a rainstorm. In the future..."
