Animals may not experience pain in the same level as humans, study (hell, quote)
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I just finished browsing a fascinating book that is the product of recent biological research on whether animals suffer in pain. It's called "Nature Red in Tooth and Claw" by Michael Murray and it proposes that even though animals like dogs, cats, and horses experience pain, nevertheless the evidence is that they do not experience the awareness that they are in pain. For the awareness that one is oneself in pain requires self-awareness, which is centered in the pre-frontal cortex of the brain—a section of the brain which is missing in all animals except for the humanoid primates. Thus, amazingly, even though animals may experience pain, they are not aware of being in pain. For even though your dog or cat may be in pain, it really isn't aware of it and so doesn't suffer as you would if you were in pain.
Fascinating: Nature red in tooth and claw: theism ... - Google Books
I actually haven't finished it yet. This thought is a positive boost for the theologian as it allows him to tackle the philosophical problem of evil. Oh, and it's great news for animal lovers out there!
It may be my opinion only, but my animals sure as hell know if they're in pain, and will actively try to avoid things that cause them pain. My dog can remember where she buried a toy over a year ago, and go dig it up; I can't imagine that she is stupid enough that she doesn't experience the awareness of something as simple as pain.
Psychologists, anthropologists, high school teachers, etc. throw around the word "self-awareness" a lot. The latest I heard was that humans, chimps, i think dolphins and now elephants have self-awareness, but no other animals do. So does that mean that any animal other than humans, chimps, dolphins and elephants are just robots with no consciousness? I'm not sure I buy that.
Psychologists, anthropologists, high school teachers, etc. throw around the word "self-awareness" a lot. The latest I heard was that humans, chimps, i think dolphins and now elephants have self-awareness, but no other animals do. So does that mean that any animal other than humans, chimps, dolphins and elephants are just robots with no consciousness? I'm not sure I buy that.
Interestingly enough, one of the tests used to determine whether or not an animal is self-aware is by allowing it to see itself in a mirror. If it recognizes itself in the mirror as being an image of itself, that shows evidence of self-awareness. I'm sure that's not the only test, but it's one of them.
After reading the product description for this book at amazon, I'm suspicious of the 'science' found in this book. It appears the author has ulterior motives.
Quote:
Amazon.com: Nature Red in Tooth and Claw: Theism and the Problem of Animal Suffering (9780199237272): Michael Murray: Books
While the problem of evil remains a perennial challenge to theistic belief, little attention has been paid to the special problem of animal pain and suffering. This absence is especially conspicuous in our Darwinian era when theists are forced to confront the fact that animal pain and suffering has gone on for at least tens of millions of years, through billions of animal generations. Evil of this sort might not be especially problematic if the standard of explanations for evil employed by theists could be applied in this instance as well. But there is the central problem: all or most of the explanations for evil cited by theists seem impotent to explain the reality of animal pain and suffering through evolutionary history. Nature Red in Tooth and Claw addresses the evil of animal pain and suffering directly, scrutinizing explanations that have been offered for such evil.
Furthering my suspicions are chapter titles such as "Problems and Explanations of Evil" and "Animal Suffering and the Fall". Admittedly, I haven't read the book, but at first glance it appears to be a book that uses science to solve problems of theism. That is not necessarily an issue as long as the science used is real. Perhaps this book is different from what I'm used to seeing, but I've seen many instances where theists abuse science or outright lie about science to advance their agenda.
I'm also skeptical of the book's claim that animals are not aware of pain. What is the point of pain if an animal is not aware and, therefore, does not react to this stimulus?
Interestingly enough, one of the tests used to determine whether or not an animal is self-aware is by allowing it to see itself in a mirror. If it recognizes itself in the mirror as being an image of itself, that shows evidence of self-awareness. I'm sure that's not the only test, but it's one of them.
Yes I've heard of that, they put a dot on the animal's forehead and if the animal notices the dot, they are self-aware. Seems very flawed. What if the animal has vision problems? What if it just doesn't understand that a mirror causes a reflection and the image is not another animal? Is understanding how a mirror works the same as having self-awareness?
Yes I've heard of that, they put a dot on the animal's forehead and if the animal notices the dot, they are self-aware. Seems very flawed. What if the animal has vision problems? What if it just doesn't understand that a mirror causes a reflection and the image is not another animal? Is understanding how a mirror works the same as having self-awareness?
No, because cats and dogs etc will eventually ignore a mirror's reflection, so they at least have the limited recognition that either "this isn't real" or "I can't play with that other creature".
The thing with chimps etc is to prove that the animal does realize that the mirror causes a reflection. Not only a reflection, but a reflection of themselves. In the case of some primates, and elephants, if the animal performs actions while looking into the mirror that imply they recognize it's a reflection of themselves, then they're assumed to be self-aware.
For instance, I saw a study where chimps were given lipstick, and a human demonstrated on themselves how to apply it -- but didn't use the mirror to do so. Chimps of course love to emulate others, so on goes the lipstick. The part of self-awareness comes in when after putting on the lipstick, the chimp would run over to the mirror and inspect themselves, and play with the lipstick while watching their reflection in the mirror. In one scene, an older chimp applied the lipstick to a younger one, and then placed the youngster in front of the mirror as if to say "look at yourself".
Definitely (in my opinion) actions that show they know it's a reflection of themselves.
It may be my opinion only, but my animals sure as hell know if they're in pain, and will actively try to avoid things that cause them pain. My dog can remember where she buried a toy over a year ago, and go dig it up; I can't imagine that she is stupid enough that she doesn't experience the awareness of something as simple as pain.
Exactly. I would like to see a link to the original study that this book is based upon because I'm having a hard time buying this premise. My dogs definitely remember pain and actively avoid things that cause them pain. How would they be able to do this if they were not aware of pain?
For example, I accidently rolled up the car window on my dog's head. I felt and still feel horrible about this accident; stupid, stupid me. My dog was not injured but he doesn't go near the car window anymore. My sister adopts abandoned dogs. Often these dogs have been abused by previous owners. It is sad to watch some of them cower in fear of being hit when I'm only lifting a hand to pet them.
Many products use pain as a training device; I don't use these products and am opposed to them. But, they do work, although not as well as positive training programs. How would they work if the animal was not aware of the pain and retained memory of it?
I just finished browsing a fascinating book that is the product of recent biological research on whether animals suffer in pain. It's called "Nature Red in Tooth and Claw" by Michael Murray and it proposes that even though animals like dogs, cats, and horses experience pain, nevertheless the evidence is that they do not experience the awareness that they are in pain. For the awareness that one is oneself in pain requires self-awareness, which is centered in the pre-frontal cortex of the brain—a section of the brain which is missing in all animals except for the humanoid primates. Thus, amazingly, even though animals may experience pain, they are not aware of being in pain. For even though your dog or cat may be in pain, it really isn't aware of it and so doesn't suffer as you would if you were in pain.
Fascinating: Nature red in tooth and claw: theism ... - Google Books
I actually haven't finished it yet. This thought is a positive boost for the theologian as it allows him to tackle the philosophical problem of evil. Oh, and it's great news for animal lovers out there!
B.S. !!!
A lack of self consciousness does not = less pain and suffering.
They do not have thoughts about pain and death as humans do.
The don't have preconceived notions, attitudes, judgments, etc., etc., about pain (and suffering and death).
That does not mean that they do not experience suffering to the same degree as humans.
That they don't have a sense of a separate "I" that is experiencing the pain, does not mean that they are not aware of their pain.
So rationalize all you want so as to make excuses and justify and feel o.k. about the pain and suffering that humans inflict on animals.
phewey.
Humans (not saying you) are often such idiots.
Last edited by coyoteskye; 11-10-2009 at 11:02 AM..
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