Spinoff thread: Bad things, good people and all that (believe, heaven, mercy)
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Asking as an honest question, because I really do not know...and in case you haven't guessed yet, I'm, well, a seeker... But here'st he question. What, honestly, is the greater good in raping a child? How about in murdering an old woman? The answer might be "we can't know..." and that's okay. I'm not demanding that anyone tell me that he or she knows every answer. I don't know if anyone really knows all the answers. I'm asking because I'd love opinions on that. Can there actually be a "greater good"--in any way, shape or form--to destroying one person's life? Even if there somehow is...then how and why was that one particular person (the rape or murder victim, for example, or cancer sufferer or child diagnosed with leukemia at the age of nine months) singled out to be the "bringer" of whatever that greater good is?
Would love any input, from people of any religion or of no religious beliefs.
Thank you for your kind words, I hope that is how I come across.
I do believe there is a "greater good" for all mankind. I don't know what it is and I don't understand it but God does and he has told us of it in the scriptures. This life is but a spek in the eternal scheme of things. I kinda look at it like God blinks and it's over. That raped child and that murdered woman will have unspeakable glory for eternity. And that rapist and murderer will have unspeakable sorrow too. I know that doesn't make those acts any less horrific in this world. God does have a plan and we do not understand that plan, we just need to have faith and I know that saying is probably so old but there's really no other way to say it. I know it sounds awfully simplistic but I think that the world is what complicates things, with God it really is simplistic.
That's so true--and your words are always very nice, btw, dreameyes, and very comforting.
I don't mind, though, that definite answers aren't possible. I'm wondering about opinions, all opinions, because hopefully something will turn up from someone else's words that will maybe be something I didn't consider before. (Oh god, here come the grammar police...sorry.)
Well, I know from what you've said previously, if I remember, correctly, you do not believe in God, but you said you wanted thoughts or opinions. I think there have been some good ones expressed here. My thought is from the Christian worldview...and it's simply that much of the heartache we experience is from "the fall of man." It may not even seem directly, but indirectly. The "fall" caused, as I understand, sin and disease and brokenness and in this world, no one, not even the innocent ones are immune from it. It's not a promise we post on our refrigerators, but Jesus said, "In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Asking as an honest question, because I really do not know...and in case you haven't guessed yet, I'm, well, a seeker... But here'st he question. What, honestly, is the greater good in raping a child? How about in murdering an old woman? The answer might be "we can't know..." and that's okay. I'm not demanding that anyone tell me that he or she knows every answer. I don't know if anyone really knows all the answers. I'm asking because I'd love opinions on that. Can there actually be a "greater good"--in any way, shape or form--to destroying one person's life? Even if there somehow is...then how and why was that one particular person (the rape or murder victim, for example, or cancer sufferer or child diagnosed with leukemia at the age of nine months) singled out to be the "bringer" of whatever that greater good is?
Would love any input, from people of any religion or of no religious beliefs.
Here's something that shows the flaws in the 'god allows suffering for the greater good' argument.
Theologians often use this to excuse evil. They claim that evil is just a means to an ultimate end, which is always good. An example is where a doctor amputates a patient's leg, an "evil", in order to prevent gangrene from spreading throughout the patient's body, "the ultimate end", which is "good". Yet this example is only justified on the basis that the doctor has limited powers. With the limitations of medical technology at his disposal, he of course chose the lesser evil; since there was no way of saving both the patient's leg and his life. However, this analogy cannot be applied to God and the problem of evil, since god, unlike the doctor, has unlimited powers. In fact, a more accurate analogy is a doctor who first actively infects the leg of his patient (god is the cause of all things), and then decide to amputate his leg when a less severe cure was available (god is all powerful). We would call such a doctor wicked and mad. Why do we call such a god good?
Last edited by pladecalvo; 05-15-2007 at 03:22 PM..
I actually do believe the ladder analogy *when it comes to free will* but what I'm asking about is things that are thrust upon people that obviously weren't their free will in the first place and aren't even a consequence of other things they may have done.QUOTE]
Well I may not have the most intellectual sounding answers but I'm always willing to give my opinion.
Everyone is given free will from God. Even the free will to take away, abuse or violate others free will. And God help those people. I do believe the people that have their free will used in this way by others will be blessed beyond our mortal comprehension. make sense?
Just one problem with this analogy weather. You can't remove the ladder but as a loving parent you would do everything in your power to prevent your son climbing the ladder, because you love him and don't want him to fall from the ladder....as you know he will do if he does climb the ladder...........but your god is omniscient and he can remove the ladder and avoid his children coming to harm. So why doesn't he? The fact that he doesn't remove the ladder means that either he can't or doesn't want to.
I think sometimes He does remove the ladder but we're just stubborn enough to find another way to hurt our selfs.
Romans 8:28" And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them".
God works in everything not just isolated incidents for our good. This does not mean that everything that happens to us is good. Evil is prevalent in our fallen world, but God is able to turn every circumstance around for our long range good. God is not working to make us happy but to fulfill His purpose. And this promise is not for everyone. It call only be claimed by those love God and are called by Him. My faith in God does not waiver when trials come because I know everything that happens in my life was either allowed by Him or sent by Him and I KNOW He WILL GET ME THROUGH WHATEVER HAPPENS IN MY LIFE.
Let me first start off by apologizing for my "Perception is reality" statement. When I went back and read your original post, you clearly gave reasons that that was an inappropriate comment. I would like to further clarify that I did not mean to imply that a victim of child abuse is anything comparable to a victim of "toe stubbing". I guess what I was trying to say, is that each of us takes...forget that, I just don't know how to put it into words. I will keep working on it.
I would also like to say that you have not offended me in any way. I am afraid that I do not understand "trolling". Maybe someone could PM me on that. If there was any lashing out, I thought it was directed at me and, perhaps, justly so.
OK, I'm going to try it again...
My use of "perception" was meant to be directed more at what a person makes of their own personal "injustice". I believe (in faith) that God does use every thing for good. We may not be able to see it. We may never know why it happened. But in faith, we believe. You do not know me. You do not know those people whose lives you believe to be so "wonderful". We do not know what goes on behind closed doors. But our lives are what we make of them and my faith in God is what gets me through the day. I can tell you that I am thankful for each day that I wake up to breath in a new day. And trust me, it's not all rainbows and butterflies. But God has promised me that he will not give me more than I can handle and that He will always provide. And those two things are what get me up and get me to the next day. I guess to a non-believer, that just sounds hokey. But it is my faith, my belief, and my God. (Oh, and for everyone willing to accept him, he is your God, too.)
Here is my take folks. I have done my share of questioning this over the years as I have struggled with many things, I did not feel like I personally deserved.
I had a lot of time recovering from various surgeries to contemplate this and study the Word on such things. This is where it led.
In the beginning there was no suffering, there was no sin. The penalty of sin is death. Man sinned and with that sin, he brought death and suffering into an otherwise safe disease free world. Well, that sin multiplied and with that so did disease and suffering. No one is righteous, we are all guilty before the Lord, even the innocent babe, will grow up to sin. Everyone has sinned or will sin. Because we live in a sinned filled World, death is contagious, and no one is immune to it's effects, not even the innocent child.
You look at the toddler who has brain cancer, you ask WHY???? Because we are sinners, and sin kills! It is not a direct result of his parents sin but of humankind's sin. If I get the flu, for example, was it because I did something to cause it?? Sometimes yes sometimes no, I may have unwittingly came in contact with the virus without even knowing. I did not cause it, but it is out there, not my fault, but do I deserve it, yes as much as any other imperfect human.
Fact is no one deserves to live a perfect life free of suffering, we are all guilty, we all deserve hell. But through Yeshua we know that this suffering no matter what it is will one day end if we only come to Him, I mean after all if Yeshua had to die the way he did, after all He was the only blameless man ever, what makes anyone think we as mere sinful humans deserve better. He died so we could have hope in eternity, and have His eternal comfort while suffering trails on Earth.
MBG
Jerz I think the bottom line is you're never going to get answers that satisfy you. The world will never get answers to spiritual matters. The world and spirituality just do not mix. I see many people wether they be athiests or whatever that ask questions that question Christianity and I see Christians answering those questions. The problem is that whoever asked the question usually will not be satisfied by the Christians answer because they are looking at it through the world.
Uh....what?
I'm sorry...but that's just a cop-out reply. "I'm answering your question, but you just don't have the right heart to understand it."
Logic is logic....period.
Case in point....cancer...
God does not simply 'allow' cancer to happen. It had to come from somewhere, right? Why did he create humans to be susceptible to it? Why are animals also susceptible to it?
What about other types of afflictions, like the influenza virus, or locusts, or biting insects? These were all created by God. He doesn't simply 'allow' these to exist. He must have actively created them. They didn't just spontaneously come about, right?
These are all simple questions that should have simple answers.
I'm sorry...but that's just a cop-out reply. "I'm answering your question, but you just don't have the right heart to understand it."
Logic is logic....period.
Case in point....cancer...
God does not simply 'allow' cancer to happen. It had to come from somewhere, right? Why did he create humans to be susceptible to it? Why are animals also susceptible to it?
What about other types of afflictions, like the influenza virus, or locusts, or biting insects? These were all created by God. He doesn't simply 'allow' these to exist. He must have actively created them. They didn't just spontaneously come about, right?
These are all simple questions that should have simple answers.
Our actions caused these things. Why do people have cancer, things we consumed, things we actively did over the years, caused mutations in cells.
All of these diseases exist because we did things that caused them to exist. The rest is answered in my previous post.
I am glad personally I am not a puppet.
MBG
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But here'st he question. What, honestly, is the greater good in raping a child? How about in murdering an old woman? The answer might be "we can't know..." and that's okay. I'm not demanding that anyone tell me that he or she knows every answer. I don't know if anyone really knows all the answers. I'm asking because I'd love opinions on that. Can there actually be a "greater good"--in any way, shape or form--to destroying one person's life? Even if there somehow is...then how and why was that one particular person (the rape or murder victim, for example, or cancer sufferer or child diagnosed with leukemia at the age of nine months) singled out to be the "bringer" of whatever that greater good is?
