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I imagine it would cause someone to be troubled, and hence this very thread.
Here's my thoughts though, since you asked.
I know the argument, indeed I seemingly argued for it in this forum some time back...I may try and dig those volleys out and send them to you for you to take a look at, in case I miss something here.
Without 'cheating' and assuming I know everything a proponant of this theology would throw out there, let me see if I can boil it down to a simple explanation of where I am.
In short, I can't save myself. Nothing I can do. Nothing I can say. Nothing I can....nothing! So, salvation at it's simplist form rest on the shoulders of our LORD(yeah, I said it) and Savior, Jesus Christ. So THAT and THAT alone is salvation.....
BUT/AND!!!!!!
After realizing and accepting the need of a Savior, quite clearly some changes are in order. So, you begin to repent from sin, which to really get that you have to understand the word for repentance doesn't necessarily mean you stop sinning, especially since no one I know ever has! But it means a 'change of mind', in other words, what you used to be OK with now you despise, even though you may do it.
Even Paul said
"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
I bolded a phrase in this passage to highlight the point I'm making. If Lordship salvation were accurate, Paul's salvation would be questionable. Of course it isn't and something else that isn't questionable is Paul's repentance. Obviously, he's 'changed his mind' regarding sin in his life.
So where am I going and what am I saying?
I'm saying that we cannot attach anything man-made to salvation, it comes from God through Christ and Christ alone. BUT that salvation is 'proved out', if you will, by constant submission, repentance, and devotion to Christ, His teachings, and His way of thinking.
Lordship Salvation looks like this:
Christ+man's submission=Salvation
Alpha's Opinion looks like this:
Christ=Salvation and Salvation=Submission and Lordship.
Any thoughts?
oh, yeah, I have quite a few thoughts but at this point, as I said, I may be too tired to put 2 coherent sentences together!
The "Alpha equation" makes sense. It does. I really think I 'll have to think more about it to provide scriptures that support Lordship salvation when I'm in better physical shape!
But let me start here from just an anecdotal starting point-I think you are Baptist, right? I grew up Baptist. Didn't you ever know anyone that claimed that they got saved and yet they seemingly totally walked totally away from the Lord? Well, what happened here? Or similarly, what about those that claim to still be saved and yet, their lifestyle even many years later does not give indication that they are even trying to live for the Lord? I may not be making sense and probably should reserve this discussion when I can think.
I imagine it would cause someone to be troubled, and hence this very thread.
Here's my thoughts though, since you asked.
I know the argument, indeed I seemingly argued for it in this forum some time back...I may try and dig those volleys out and send them to you for you to take a look at, in case I miss something here.
Without 'cheating' and assuming I know everything a proponant of this theology would throw out there, let me see if I can boil it down to a simple explanation of where I am.
In short, I can't save myself. Nothing I can do. Nothing I can say. Nothing I can....nothing! So, salvation at it's simplist form rest on the shoulders of our LORD(yeah, I said it) and Savior, Jesus Christ. So THAT and THAT alone is salvation.....
BUT/AND!!!!!!
After realizing and accepting the need of a Savior, quite clearly some changes are in order. So, you begin to repent from sin, which to really get that you have to understand the word for repentance doesn't necessarily mean you stop sinning, especially since no one I know ever has! But it means a 'change of mind', in other words, what you used to be OK with now you despise, even though you may do it.
Even Paul said
"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
I bolded a phrase in this passage to highlight the point I'm making. If Lordship salvation were accurate, Paul's salvation would be questionable. Of course it isn't and something else that isn't questionable is Paul's repentance. Obviously, he's 'changed his mind' regarding sin in his life.
So where am I going and what am I saying?
I'm saying that we cannot attach anything man-made to salvation, it comes from God through Christ and Christ alone. BUT that salvation is 'proved out', if you will, by constant submission, repentance, and devotion to Christ, His teachings, and His way of thinking.
Lordship Salvation looks like this:
Christ+man's submission=Salvation
Alpha's Opinion looks like this:
Christ=Salvation and Salvation=Submission and Lordship.
Any thoughts?
Amen! Very well said. I totally agree. Salvation is a free gift for all paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. But once we accept this salvation our lives will naturally and gradually conform to having Jesus Christ Lord over our lives thus leading to a Christlike life.
oh, yeah, I have quite a few thoughts but at this point, as I said, I may be too tired to put 2 coherent sentences together!
The "Alpha equation" makes sense. It does. I really think I 'll have to think more about it to provide scriptures that support Lordship salvation when I'm in better physical shape!
But let me start here from just an anecdotal starting point-I think you are Baptist, right? I grew up Baptist. Didn't you ever know anyone that claimed that they got saved and yet they seemingly totally walked totally away from the Lord? Well, what happened here? Or similarly, what about those that claim to still be saved and yet, their lifestyle even many years later does not give indication that they are even trying to live for the Lord? I may not be making sense and probably should reserve this discussion when I can think.
I'm pretty wiped out too, so I agree, let's discuss it a little later. That being said, in your example above, I would VERY CAUTIOUSLY suggest that there is a POSSIBILITY that the individual may not have truly been saved. Again, I take comments like that very, very seriously because I don't think that's something we should EVER do. Had you used a real life example, I would not have responded, but since you used 'hypotheticals', I decided to CAUTIOUSLY suggest that.
Get some rest, kaykay, God's blessings to you and yours.
Salvation is the free gift of God...not of works lest any man should boast....
If we believe in Lordship Salvation, i.e., gradual salvation, then that puts it on us. No! Our sin and the sacrifice for our sin has already been placed on Jesus. He paid the penalty. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation.
I believe that is the first and obviously most important step, then as we mature spiritually and yield to the persuasion of the Holy Spirit, we will allow Christ to truly be Lord of our lives.
The Bible teaches that once we are saved, we are new creatures. I do not think someone will wish to continue in a known sin once they have met the Living God. The Holy Spirit will be there gently getting our attention to cause us to realize our sin and give us the strength to walk away rather than continue in it. To me, that is Lordship.
Salvation is the free gift of God...not of works lest any man should boast....
If we believe in Lordship Salvation, i.e., gradual salvation, then that puts it on us. No! Our sin and the sacrifice for our sin has already been placed on Jesus. He paid the penalty. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation.
I believe that is the first and obviously most important step, then as we mature spiritually and yield to the persuasion of the Holy Spirit, we will allow Christ to truly be Lord of our lives.
The Bible teaches that once we are saved, we are new creatures. I do not think someone will wish to continue in a known sin once they have met the Living God. The Holy Spirit will be there gently getting our attention to cause us to realize our sin and give us the strength to walk away rather than continue in it. To me, that is Lordship.
So, Nana, is it safe to say that you think salvation is the 'trigger' or 'starting point' and 'Lordship' is the process of 'working out our salvation'(Phil 2:12)? I don't know if that sounds right.
So, Nana, is it safe to say that you think salvation is the 'trigger' or 'starting point' and 'Lordship' is the process of 'working out our salvation'(Phil 2:12)? I don't know if that sounds right.
Yes. But please note that does not mean working FOR our salvation.
One reference I read says we can compare this to "salvation being a huge gift that needs to be unwrapped for one's thorough enjoyment." That seems to pretty well sum up our walk with Christ!
Gill's commentary explains it as:
"The words may be rendered, "work about your salvation"; employ yourselves in things which accompany salvation, and to be performed by all those that expect it, though not to be expected for the performance of them; such as hearing of the word, submission to Gospel ordinances, and a discharge of every branch of moral, spiritual, and evangelical obedience for which the apostle before commends them, and now exhorts them to continue in; to go on in a course of cheerful obedience to the close of their days, believing in Christ, obeying his Gospel, attending constantly to his word and ordinances, and discharging every duty in faith and fear, until at last they should receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls:"
Verse 13 goes on to say it is God who is doing the work in us, so even our "working out" isn't of our own volition, but for God's own good pleasure! Praise Him!!
Verse 13 goes on to say it is God who is doing the work in us, so even our "working out" isn't of our own volition, but for God's own good pleasure! Praise Him!!
That's good stuff right there. It's so amazing the way God works. Thanks Nana.
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I may not be making sense and probably should reserve this discussion when I can think.
