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The argumentum ad populum is a red herring and genetic fallacy. It appeals on probabilistic terms; given that 75% of a population answer A to a question where the answer is unknown, the argument states that it is reasonable to assume that the answer is indeed A. It is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely-held is not necessarily a guarantee that the belief is correct.
The Toyota Corolla is owned by more people in the world than any other, so in your mind that obviously makes it the best car and the one we should all drive, right?...I don't think so.
You STILL don't "get it", do you?!
I DO understand that on the basis of "Pedigree Logic and Reason", "ad pop & appeals" are technically a "logical fallacy". But ONLY a "logical fallacy"..which in NO WAY precludes their ability to discern/determine/predict reality and/or truth. I also understand that the "real world" doesn't function in such a way that "pure" logic and reason can be effectively applied, save for veeeeeery few situations.
Your analogy about the Toyota is a good illustration of my point. So sans, let's see you apply "Pure Logic and Reason" to determine the "best car"! I submit...this is the perfect example of a "real world" question whereby the application of Intuition and Perception (with ad pop & appeals taken into consideration) is the best...if not the ONLY way...to draw a conclusion or make a determination. You hip to the "concept" now?!
Hip?..What are you a hippie?..The best car is the one I drive...You don't get it either... Without logic what is left? Watch this video...You use every one of these fallacious arguments...
Dead rotten meat is the best food....20 billion flies can't be wrong...I'll let you know when I start believing in that or in God, but don't hold your breath.
Having faith that what will happen? That the chair you're about to be seated in, won't kick out from under you?
Every time a person goes to plop down in a chair to sit, they have an unconscious amount of faith that chair will hold 'em.
Nope, you rely on trust not faith. You subscribe to the evidence that in 99.9% of the times you have sat on the chair it hasn't collapsed.
Trust = Believing something based on the available and proven evidence. (the evidence being that the chair usually does not collapse).
Now if it was the other way and 99.9% of the times you sat on the chair it DID collapse, then you would have to have faith that the chair isn't going to collapse when you sit in it.
Faith = Believing something is true when the evidence does not support what you believe. (The evidence is that the chair will collapse....but you have faith that it won't).
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
We're supposed to accept your contention that 90% of the people in the world...lie to themself...refuse to recognize logic and evidence...practice ignorance of the supportable...are absent of logic... are absent of reason...are absent of evidence...and are absent of common sense?!
In the case of god belief, sadly....yes.
“Wisdom is the lost property of the believer.”
-Muhammad
Hip?..What are you a hippie?..The best car is the one I drive...You don't get it either... Without logic what is left? Watch this video...You use every one of these fallacious arguments...
Dead rotten meat is the best food....20 billion flies can't be wrong...I'll let you know when I start believing in that or in God, but don't hold your breath.
Nope!...You still don't get it.
Without logic...what is "left", is what we use to draw conclusions and make determinations 99.99% of the time anyway...Intuition and Perception.
"Logical Fallacy" DOES NOT denote the inability to determine truth...just that the method used to come to a conclusion strayed from the confines of Pedigree Logic. Also, it doesn't hold that the alternative method could be BETTER...or the ONLY way to make a determination..
Also...even with the strict application of logic and reason...you could STILL come to the wrong conclusion.
I see your answer to "Best car?" was..."the one I drive". Since the analogy you gave made reference to a specific make and model of car...be specific as to the make and model of "the one you drive"....then explain (in detail)...how you made your choice of that make and model...and how you determined that was the correct choice, and objectively true as to it being "the best car"...strictly through the application of Pure Logic, with no other considerations. After all.."logic" is all there is, right?
Oh, and BTW...the term "hip" was never specifically associated with "hippies". Don't know why you thought so.
Opium addicts in England used to smoke long pipes that would rest on their hips as they reclined, leaving calluses and, one would think, burn marks. Thus if you wanted to get into opium, or find out if someone else was, you asked if they were "hip."
Without logic...what is "left", is what we use to draw conclusions and make determinations 99.99% of the time anyway...Intuition and Perception.
"Logical Fallacy" DOES NOT denote the inability to determine truth...just that the method used to come to a conclusion strayed from the confines of Pedigree Logic. Also, it doesn't hold that the alternative method could be BETTER...or the ONLY way to make a determination..
Also...even with the strict application of logic and reason...you could STILL come to the wrong conclusion.
I see your answer to "Best car?" was..."the one I drive". Since the analogy you gave made reference to a specific make and model of car...be specific as to the make and model of "the one you drive"....then explain (in detail)...how you made your choice of that make and model...and how you determined that was the correct choice, and objectively true as to it being "the best car"...strictly through the application of Pure Logic, with no other considerations. After all.."logic" is all there is, right?
Oh, and BTW...the term "hip" was never specifically associated with "hippies". Don't know why you thought so.
You are either having trouble getting your head around this - which is understandable since most people don't - I didn't myself for a long time -
or you are choosing to prefer the personal preference special pleading which is often called 'common sense'.
This is preferring to believe one's own prejudices without evidence or in spite of the evidence. As I say, this is a more common way of thinking and arguing than in accordance with the rules of logic.
But what you call 'pedigree logic' as distinct to non - pedigree logic or poor logic or 'eveybody knows' or 'common sense' or 'I don't case what you say' or 'God's logic' or 'Isn't it possible' or faith is better than science' or any of the stuff used to prop up prejudice, preference and piosity is actually as valid as mathematics. If you want to claim that 2+2 = 5 because only 'pedigree mathematics' says so, then you can.
You are far from the only person on the boards who had rejected the rules of logic apparently because they suited the atheist case rathert han the theist case. Others have rejected science, history, anything that conflicted with their faith based preferences.
You have the choice: to work with the best available methods of coming to conclusions or to reject them in favour of illogic, alternative history or non -science.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell Having faith that what will happen? That the chair you're about to be seated in, won't kick out from under you?
Every time a person goes to plop down in a chair to sit, they have an unconscious amount of faith that chair will hold 'em.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Nope, you rely on trust not faith. You subscribe to the evidence that in 99.9% of the times you have sat on the chair it hasn't collapsed.
Trust = Believing something based on the available and proven evidence. (the evidence being that the chair usually does not collapse).
Now if it was the other way and 99.9% of the times you sat on the chair it DID collapse, then you would have to have faith that the chair isn't going to collapse when you sit in it.
Faith = Believing something is true when the evidence does not support what you believe. (The evidence is that the chair will collapse....but you have faith that it won't).
In the case of god belief, sadly....yes.
“Wisdom is the lost property of the believer.”
-Muhammad
You are either having trouble getting your head around this - which is understandable since most people don't - I didn't myself for a long time -
or you are choosing to prefer the personal preference special pleading which is often called 'common sense'.
This is preferring to believe one's own prejudices without evidence or in spite of the evidence. As I say, this is a more common way of thinking and arguing than in accordance with the rules of logic.
But what you call 'pedigree logic' as distinct to non - pedigree logic or poor logic or 'eveybody knows' or 'common sense' or 'I don't case what you say' or 'God's logic' or 'Isn't it possible' or faith is better than science' or any of the stuff used to prop up prejudice, preference and piosity is actually as valid as mathematics. If you want to claim that 2+2 = 5 because only 'pedigree mathematics' says so, then you can.
You are far from the only person on the boards who had rejected the rules of logic apparently because they suited the atheist case rathert han the theist case. Others have rejected science, history, anything that conflicted with their faith based preferences.
You have the choice: to work with the best available methods of coming to conclusions or to reject them in favour of illogic, alternative history or non -science.
Thats true enough. Confused minds produce confusion. They refuse to
follow simplistic rational thinking.
This is my point.
Rational application is a form of simplicity. Its the easy way, and is without error, relative to our placement. Mans placement within the universe dictates his
rational. All he can do is follow the logic within his placement .
Disturbed thinking scramble to invite and lure others , into the gutter of confusion. Its easily identified with multiple statements that have no
overall relevance and without purpose. Tangled without simplicity.
Some of the most difficult things to comprehend can be best explained in a
simplistic way.
Complexity and simplicity co-exist in all . An opinion.
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