the prayer that released Jonah from the whale (Muslims, gospels, bible)
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That's quite a move to dodge and completely avoid the subject. You have no answer so you switch to a story (as interesting as it may be) about Abu Jahal, Abu Bakr and Muhammad which is unrelated and has nothing to do with the subject of Jonah being swallowed by a large sea creature.
There are different ways to view the story of Jonah. Not all people will agree with you. Some people may believe it actually happened. Others may believe it is only a story that illustrates the behavior of people. And still others may give other alternative examples (as weird as they may be) to explain such a story.
i was not trying to switch the story ,
i was trying to show that the response of those that do not believe in the creator and do not believe in his messengers and in his holy books when they hear a miracle , the response is the same in any era.
and there are many miracles things happened for the prophets
prophet Ibrahim was thrown into a huge fire for long time and he did not get burned
They said: "Burn him and help your alihah (gods), if you will be doing."
We (Allah) said: "O fire! Be you coolness and safety for Ibrahim (Abraham)!". The Noble Quran.
prophet Moses split the sea
Then We revealed to Musa (Moses) (saying): "Strike the sea with your stick." And it parted, and each separate part (of that sea water) became like huge mountain.
Then We brought near the others [Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) party] to that place.
And We saved Musa (Moses) and all those with him.
Then We drowned the others.
Verily in this is indeed a sign (or a proof), yet most of them are not believers. The Noble Quran.
the story of Jonah and the whale for the muslims is true 100% because it is mentioned in the Quran .
And, verily, Yunus (Jonah) was one of the Messengers.
When he ran to the laden ship:
Then he (agreed to) cast lots, and he was among the losers.
Then a (big) fish swallowed him as he had done an act worthy of blame.
Had he not been of them who glorify Allah,
He would have indeed remained inside its belly (the fish) till the Day of Resurrection.
But We cast him forth on the naked shore while he was sick,
And We caused a plant of gourd to grow over him. The Noble Quran.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar
Are you the creator? Are you a prophet? If not, then perhaps you should exercise restraint and avoid putting meaningless labels on other people based on your own personal disagreement and assumptions. Because someone disagrees with your point of view, it's okay for you to automatically label them as an atheist? Maybe you should take a good look at your own self to see what kind of example you're setting and showing to others.
From what I recall from my reading of the Quran - the same God of Islam (Allah) is the same God of the Hebrew Bible (using the non-Yahwistic terms for God: El, Elohe, Elohim, etc.). That point is hammered home many times, if I recall correctly, and parts of the Quran recall how the Arabs reached out to the Jews to show them this. It's fairly easy to see the linguistic relationship between the Quranic term Allah (derived partly from "ilah")and the Israelite El-derivatives - the initial vowel shouldn't confuse people in this regard. Even further back beyond Israel's Elohim and El lie the main god El of Ugarit, and beyond that the standard term for "a god": Ilum, from Akkadian. The main differences between the various terms are the case-endings (or lack thereof), and vowel assignations to the initial aleph. It gets complicated, but the basic picture is there.
Christians tend to find this information a little hard to digest since they do not use the terms El or Elohim, and either rely on the catch-all translation "God" or "Theos", etc.. Therefore, they miss the obvious connection between El, Elohim, Elohe and Allah. For those reading who are curious about the relationship, check out this short summary here: Allah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The main difference I find with the Hebrew and Arabic terms for "God" is that the personal name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Yahweh (usually pronounced today superstitiously [or reverently] as "Adonai" by observant Jews, and usually translated as "The LORD" in English Bibles unfortunately) and Elohim and El are used as generic terms for God (or in combinations such as El Shaddai, El Elyon), while in the Quran the personal name of God is actually Allah, with ilah being the generic term for "a god".
So - with that as background (for those who were not aware), it's easy to see why the Quran insists that Allah is the same God that the Jews and Christians both worshipped, and that Mohammed was another prophet in the long line of important prophets (as you pointed out: Moses, Jesus, etc.) bringing new information from God, and that such information should supersede previous prophetic messages. Of course, this relegates Jesus to a mere prophetic-status (which, while I may agree with you on this 100% - will grate against most Christian sensibilities, who believe him to be much more divine), but that is the choice the Quran made. But I have two points to add to this, and a question or two:
1: Scholars working closely with the texts the Sacred Scriptures of Judaism and Christianity have come to the conclusion that Moses did not write the entire Pentateuch (if he wrote any of it at all - see here), David did not write the entire collection of Psalms, the Gospels were not eye-witness accounts and borrowed heavily from both oral and written sources AND each other and that these works can not withstand the suggestion that they came from the mouth of God himself. While most scholars will readily admit that the Quran was penned by Mohammed, they find it hard to believe that it was dictated to him from a messenger from God.
So while we may say that all of these works were the works of human hands, we cannot say for certain how much of a role God played in them.
2: How does Inspiration work? Is it a mindless writing down of dictation? Is it a muse? What is it? We just don't know for certain. We can say that Yahweh or Allah was the source for these prophets, but we really don't know exactly how it worked (thought the Quran is specific in how it worked in Mohammed's case). In fact, it's impossible to accept the suggestion you made without a large leap of Faith.
3: Is God the source of all the writings of the Hebrew Bible? Were all the works written under direct inspiration? This has a bearing on the Book of Jonah - it's a prophetic book unlike the other ones: there are no poetic oracles, for one. Most scholars view it as an entirely non-historical work of creative fiction, meant to teach - but not meant to be taken seriously historically. Even so - does it's historicity matter? It still has the power to move us.
4: Again - you'll have to understand (or at least tolerate) the fact that most Jews and Christians have not been willing to accept Mohammed's claim to be the final word on the matter of God's relationship with the people of the world. You many use the claim for a personal argument that has much weight, but it will not have much weight with those who do not agree with you. You might have to find a middle ground in order to discuss the Prayer of Jonah - one that does not automatically dismiss previous religious traditions.
The name of the creator is Allah and i have no doubt about that at all.
and i think that any other name close to the name Allah then i think it was diverted from Allah because a name should be the same in any language.
and in the Quran Allah said that he is Allah and i do not believe that the word God is is a name for the creator .
and there many names in the Quran are different from the names that are in the Bible, for example the mother of prophet Jesus Mary , in the Quran she is named as Maryam peace be upon her and Moses is named as Musa and Jesus is names as Isa.
The name of the creator is Allah and i have no doubt about that at all.
and i think that any other name close to the name Allah then i think it was diverted from Allah because a name should be the same in any language.
and in the Quran Allah said that he is Allah and i do not believe that the word God is is a name for the creator .
....
Thanks for the link. I understand that - from your tradition's point of view - Allah has always been, and has always been called Allah, so naturally any other words that share the same linguistic root must be "offshoots" of "Allah". When did he make His name known to men, though? I do not know. I'm not sure anyone knows.
From a historical linguistic approach, however, the semitic words for "god" or "God" have a long lineage stemming from the ancient East Semitic word illum (basically, the letter "l" proceeded by a guttural vowel - more details in my previous post). From there, apparantly, it spread out to the other Semitic languages and took on various different usages. It would be interesting to know exactly when and what terms the ancient Southern Arabs used when they first began to be differentiated apart from their neighbors. (Interestingly, when the Ugaritic language was discovered around 1929 on clay tablets in a cuneiform script, and other Semitic languages were used to try to help understand it comparatively, Arabic became a popular choice to help decipher the language in certain instances. It is now understood that one must be careful when using Arabic, especially when using Arabic words that arose later than Ugaritic - but nonetheless, Arabic has been very helpful in elucidating Ugaritic). Arabic is a language I haven't learned yet (soon - it's on the agenda next), but I still find it interesting to study the ancient Arabic script - usually called Old Southern Arabic - before the cursive one we're all familiar with today became standard much later. The old style of script looked like this, with the lapidary style (used for stone or other hard materials) on the top:
Anyways - it's still difficult to ascertain many of the dates for the Old South Arabic inscriptions, but one can trace the development of the letters over time, and with the influence of Persia and the Aramaic script we have the beautiful script that is used today.
But I'm digressing. In short, you're saying that the Arabs (even the ancient Arabs) always used the name "Allah"? It might be interesting for you to explore the root of "Allah" and trace it's development. I think it helps demonstrate the point that the Quran attempted to make when it claimed that Allah was the same God as the god of the Jews and Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller
and there many names in the Quran are different from the names that are in the Bible, for example the mother of prophet Jesus Mary , in the Quran she is named as Maryam peace be upon her and Moses is named as Musa and Jesus is names as Isa.
Yeh, that holds true for the Hebrew Bible as well. We have anglicized the personal names so that the Semitic qualities are lost on readers. "Miryam" is a good transliteration from Hebrew of what we know as "Mary", though in Arabic you have it as "Maryam"(?); "Moses" is our English equivalent for Hebrew "Moshe" or Arabic "Musa"(?). I think the differences between the Arabic names are simply transliteration issues, rather than a matter of having the "correct" name. Like "Abraham" and "Ibraham" - sometimes the difference is merely the initial guttural vowel, much like in the examples for "God" I gave previously.
There are a few translations out there (but not many) that try to give the names as accurately as possible, and I tend to use those when I can when citing Scripture. Translators, for the most part, have unfortunately been fond of removing the Semitic quality of the works they translate and are fond of using the familiar Anglicizations like "Mary" and "Isaac" and "Jacob", etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller
i just asked
how much time did he stay inside the whale
and in which land he was released then i started replay to the threads.
and i get the words for this prayer
‘Laa ilaaha illa Anta,subhaanaka inni kuntu min al-zaalimeen
(There is no god but You, glory to You, verily I was one of the wrongdoers).’
A Muslim never calls upon his Lord with these words concerning any matter, but his prayer is answered.
Thanks. Yes, this thread has gone here and there and eveywhere, hasn't it?
Have you ever used this prayer in a time of need, if you don't mind me asking? I'm curious as to whether it is a common prayer, or reserved for special occasions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller
the pronounce of arabic word for whale is Alhoot = the whale
Thank you - that matches the transliteration I provided ( ḥût) in the citation from an earlier post on the Septuagintal influence on how later translators would try to narrow down the species of "big fish" - unnecessarily, in my opinion.
i was trying to show that the response of those that do not believe in the creator and do not believe in his messengers and in his holy books when they hear a miracle , the response is the same in any era.
...and there are many miracles things happened for the prophet
Your post on page 6, post #53, began with this:
"This is the expected reaction from the atheists"
Labeling people who disagree or hold different view as atheists was your reply to my post in which I cited generic examples showing that there are many different ways of thinking about the same thing (in this case, Jonah being consumed by a large sea creature and surviving). However, there's not one iota of evidence to show that that the story of Jonah (or anyone else) would be consumed by a sea creature and live to tell about it. There's no evidence to show that the story of Jonah is anything other than a story. To assume otherwise amounts to blind faith in old writings without any evidence to support that such an event did ever, or could ever actually happen. The ONLY thing there is to go on is the story as written. Nothing else. Should people also assume that a half-woman/half-dog creature is real because of some kind of curse on the woman and a video showing it has been posted? It must be a miracle, right? Wrong! It's not a miracle as it's already known how it was done, and even at that, it's a cheap fake, the kind found in carnival freak shows.
That different people may have a view that differs from yours does not justify putting a label on others. If people want to identify themselves with a label then that's their choice and is entirely up to them. And even if a person makes a comment that seems negative to you, it does not justify being negative to them as it only creates a wider division among people. All people, no better, no worse, in that all share the same humanity.
But, yes, you did switch the subject which had nothing to do with the story of Jonah. I can understand that it's a personal matter for you, and that's okay. No one is perfect. But it still doesn't justify labeling (name calling) which only puts YOU in a bad light. I think it's better to stick with the subject at hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller
the story of Jonah and the whale for the muslims is true 100% because it is mentioned in the Quran .
And that's precisely the point. Muslims believe the story is 100% true because it is mentioned in the Quran, so to them, it doesn't matter if evidence shows it's not realistic. It's not just muslims that think like that either. While muslims say all texts are unreliable because they may contain copy or translation errors, except the Quran, is not surprising. All religions make that same claim, that their's is the only one that's right. Regardless, it doesn't take away from the point of the story about Jonah, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's meant to be taken as an absolute fact. Sometimes stories have their own strength. The strength of the story lies in its message, regardless of whether it's fact or fiction.
As has been said before, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The story of Jonah sorely lacks any proof. It's more like the story of Pinocchio, the wooden puppet that turned into a real boy. We do not know what the original writer(s) about Jonah had in mind. Perhaps it began as a story that was passed on orally for several generations until someone got the idea to write it down. Stories like that can and do change over time, adding a few extra details an omitting others over time. Can we expect that people from the bronze age only told tales that actually happened exactly as they told it? I wouldn't be surprised that the story originated from an entirely different culture. After all, the written story of the Great Flood and Noah is predated by and has its roots stemming from the Sumerian's Epic of Gilgamesh (2100-2000 BCE). Gilgamesh flood myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You're welcome. Relax, and don't take things too personal or too seriously. Humor has a positive side to it and is an important part of human nature. No problem. Let's put it behind and continue on. There's always something of value to learn from others whether it's agreeable or not.
But still... in this modern day and age, to actually believe in once-reported but NEVER REPEATED "miracles" from God, Thor, Zeus or any other supernatural source is, well, a bit simplistically minded on behalf of the claimant. I know full well that for some it's vitally important that these old tales actually be held up as factually true past events.
But again, not one of these prophecies or fables has EVER been seen since those un-educated biblical times, and even then, these stories were all passed down, orally at first, but then overtime they became, as such stories do, better-embellished and then finally, many decades and even centuries later, written down AS IF THEY HAD ACTUALLY BEEN WITNESSED AND DOCUMENTED in some scientifically valid and credible manner.
This is rationally and simply not so. They were all, obviously intended as simple allegories, intended to get some larger philosophical point across. Not to claim that a guy named Jonah actually survived in the cramped and content filled digestive stomach cavity. (see the Seattle whale story!).
It's very interesting that there are still individuals, even those who have seemingly had some level of simple schooling, who really want to hold on to such inventive and creative fables as factual, given that literally millenia have now passed since their last claimed occurrences, and not a single such special event has been witnessed!
But still... in this modern day and age, to actually believe in once-reported but NEVER REPEATED "miracles" from God, Thor, Zeus or any other supernatural source is, well, a bit simplistically minded on behalf of the claimant. I know full well that for some it's vitally important that these old tales actually be held up as factually true past events.
But again, not one of these prophecies or fables has EVER been seen since those un-educated biblical times, and even then, these stories were all passed down, orally at first, but then overtime they became, as such stories do, better-embellished and then finally, many decades and even centuries later, written down AS IF THEY HAD ACTUALLY BEEN WITNESSED AND DOCUMENTED in some scientifically valid and credible manner.
This is rationally and simply not so. They were all, obviously intended as simple allegories, intended to get some larger philosophical point across. Not to claim that a guy named Jonah actually survived in the cramped and content filled digestive stomach cavity. (see the Seattle whale story!).
It's very interesting that there are still individuals, even those who have seemingly had some level of simple schooling, who really want to hold on to such inventive and creative fables as factual, given that literally millenia have now passed since their last claimed occurrences, and not a single such special event has been witnessed!
I agree - which is why I always push people to get past the whole "whale" thing and get to the actual point of the Book, if they are absolutely intent on using the Book as some sort of religious guide to modern life. But alas - for most people who hear the story growing up, the "whale" is the only part that grabs their attention. It requires a bit more maturity to move past the fish and get to the real meat and potatoes of the tale. Baby steps.
But as you point out in so many words, I think some people are still proud of their baby steps and are just fine with leaving them as the ultimate achievement both religiously and philosophically.
Yup. I'm always reminded of my dear, now-departed and much loved Mother in Law, a persistent and strong-willed woman who always got a silly childish look on her face whenever she had the opportunity to relate some quaint biblical story that she remembered so intensely from her brainwa... I mean Sunday School... days.
When I was first getting to know her (her daughter and I have been married for >28 years...), if I was silly enough to question her beliefs about Noah's Ark, or Jonah or any of that stuff, she got quite haughty, alternating between going for my jugular to even think of questioning anything from the literal bible, and that glowing childish look of utter spiritual glee about all those utterly dumb fairy tales!
I learned to just smile at her.
Now here, with C-D's anonymity, I can go for the spiritual jugular of those who do honestly but unthinkingly posit these stories as real.
Yup. I'm always reminded of my dear, now-departed and much loved Mother in Law, a persistent and strong-willed woman who always got a silly childish look on her face whenever she had the opportunity to relate some quaint biblical story that she remembered so intensely from her brainwa... I mean Sunday School... days.
When I was first getting to know her (her daughter and I have been married for >28 years...), if I was silly enough to question her beliefs about Noah's Ark, or Jonah or any of that stuff, she got quite haughty, alternating between going for my jugular to even think of questioning anything from the literal bible, and that glowing childish look of utter spiritual glee about all those utterly dumb fairy tales!
I learned to just smile at her.
Now here, with C-D's anonymity, I can go for the spiritual jugular of those who do honestly but unthinkingly posit these stories as real.
Heh heh! Some of us DO like our childhood, I suppose, and the claws come out, eh? Sometimes I think it would be well for some to remember the New Testament's thoughts on mentally growing up:
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child;
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(I Corinthians 13:11, KJV-CE)
Rarely is this verse invoked towards its natural conclusion.
One of my favorite quotes concerning the reception of the Book of Jonah today comes from the Jewish Study Bible in which the brief introduction has Ehud Ben Zvi write "No critical scholar today advocates the historicity of the prophet and his fantastic misadventures" (Oxford, 2004, p. 1199) - and this is talking about the entire book's events, not to mention the time-worn "whale" part!
". When did he make His name known to men, though? I do not know. I'm not sure anyone knows.
.
kids learn new things from the father and mother and we learned his name from our first father and mother , Adam and Eve
and Eve got it from Adam and Adam got it from Allah.
And He taught Adam all the names (of everything) , then He showed them to the angels and said,
"Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful." The Noble Quran.
O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam),
and from him (Adam) He created his wife [Hawwa (Eve)],
and from them both He created many men and women;
and fear Allah through Whom you demand (your mutual rights),
and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship) .
Surely, Allah is Ever an All-Watcher over you. the Noble Quran
and the Quran confirms that he is Allah.
And He is Allah, there is no god but He!
All praise is due to Him in this (life) and the hereafter,
and His is the judgment, and to Him you shall be brought back. The Noble Quran.
and even prophet Jesus peace be upon him called the god Allah
".
Have you ever used this prayer in a time of need, if you don't mind me asking? I'm curious as to whether it is a common prayer, or reserved for special occasions.
yes I say it and it is used when some one is in calamity or crisis .
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
“The prayer of Dhu’l-Noon (Prophet Jonah peace be upon him )
when he was in the belly of the fish:
‘Laa ilaaha illa Anta, subhaanaka inni kuntu min al-zaalimeen (There is no god but You, glory to You, verily I was one of the wrongdoers).’
A Muslim never calls upon his Lord with these words concerning any matter, but his prayer is answered
I wouldn't be surprised that the story originated from an entirely different culture. After all, the written story of the Great Flood and Noah is predated by and has its roots stemming from the Sumerian's Epic of Gilgamesh (2100-2000 BCE).
.
The story of the Great Flood and Noah is also in the Quran .
"And construct the ship under Our Eyes and with Our Revelation, and call not upon Me on behalf of those who did wrong; they are surely to be drowned."
And as he was constructing the ship, whenever the chiefs of his people passed by him, they mocked at him. He said: "If you mock at us, so do we mock at you likewise for your mocking.
"And you will know who it is on whom will come a torment that will cover him with disgrace and on whom will fall a lasting torment."
(So it was) till when Our Command came and the oven gushed forth (water like fountains from the earth). We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two (male and female), and your family - except him against whom the Word has already gone forth - and those who believe. And none believed with him, except a few."
And he [Nuh (Noah) ] said: "Embark therein: in the Name of Allah will be its (moving) course and its (resting) anchorage. Surely, my Lord is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
So it (the ship) sailed with them amidst waves like mountains, and Nuh (Noah) called out to his son, who had separated himself (apart): "O my son! Embark with us and be not with the disbelievers."
(The son) replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain; it will save me from the water." Nuh (Noah) said: "This day there is no saviour from the Decree of Allah except him on whom He has mercy." And waves came in between them, so he (the son) was among the drowned.
And it was said: "O earth! Swallow up your water, and O sky! Withhold (your rain)." And the water was made to subside and the Decree (of Allah) was fulfilled (i.e. the destruction of the people of Nuh (Noah). And it (the ship) rested on (Mount) Judi, and it was said: "Away with the people who are Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers)!" The Noble Quran.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar
So what exactly does the inside of a whale's stomach look like? Have a look for yourself......
Allah inspired the whale to swallow Yunus (Jonah) without scratching his meat, or break his bones .
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