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And what do you say to people who have your problems - and even worse problems - who have called out to God and received absolutely bupkiss in response?
I hear these kinds of stories all the time - but like rags to riches stories, you only hear about the successes. Rarely do you get to hear of the tens of thousands of people who bleated out pleas to God and had their life changed not one iota.
Yeah, like lotteries, you only hear about the winners.
Exactly, faith is not reason, nor is it fact. It is just faith.
Well, I'm glad when you had your conversation with your god inside your own head, that it worked out for you an it helped. I say that without being factious.
However, you can not, nor can anyone else, replicate your feelings, thoughts, etc. Especially incongruous is that one would think that stories cobbled together by some bronzed aged, wandering and superstitious desert goat herders 2-3000 years ago had any credibility, especially since most of those stories were plagiarized from surrounding area, and those plagiarized stories were even older.
If your faith works for you, great.
Thank you,
I am glad you understood. The battle is inside you in your very soul, thoughts, consciousness. In Biblical terms water. This battle is against the Beast of revelation.
Christians Know that the Spirit of the prince of power of air{dragon} was defeated on the cross. The dragon was cast out of heaven. So the spiritual battle was won. And from the dragon comes the Beast out of the water he comes. Our water reflects our Spirit.
The scripture tells that you are the temple.
My favorite allegory is from the Matrix. Plugged in. The ones unplugged are free. Not part of the system Biblically Known as worldly.
A fact can only be measured by the individual. If you like math look into fractals. Here is a tidbit Divide one into three parts.
Superstition is to Religion as astrology is to astronomy.
Religion is a way of life. Read all the scriptures and you'll find that they are of one accord.
Faith can grow from no substantial evidence. But without faith you will not seek that evidence nor see it when it s given.
And what do you say to people who have your problems - and even worse problems - who have called out to God and received absolutely bupkiss in response?
I hear these kinds of stories all the time - but like rags to riches stories, you only hear about the successes. Rarely do you get to hear of the tens of thousands of people who bleated out pleas to God and had their life changed not one iota.
Sorry, I need an example. I cannot speculate to speculation.
Like?
Why do the wicked live a long prosperous life next to the just man dying young?
Is it because God is merciful and gives the wicked time to repent?
Maybe the just mans work is complete with god and he'll rest?
If there is a God then he would have authority of time. So the measure of such to each of us is his to give.
Personally I was never happier than when I lived out of a tent in the wilderness for a year.. I was provided everything that was needed. I tell you animals are crazy on full moons.
I apologize for my personal summary.
To clarify.
When I cried out to the God for help a reprieve was given. But it was always temporary. Again and again the tide would role in to a predictable pattern. This is when I started wondering about Jesus. I contemplated this for about two years. All the while riding the storm. The most memorable occurance involving this time was when riding a public bus to the house. I found an empty seat next to a young lady who was asleep. Awhile after the bus was moving the woman popped up, looked straight at me and asked point blank do you believe Jesus is your Lord and savior? I answered I don't know. So she responded how do you think you get to heaven. Mind you the bus is full and all eyes were on me. I answered by my actions. She responded. "So you believe you can have eternal life in YOUR works"? Of course I said yes.
As I said before I was stubborn and young. It took me another four years to even see the miracle I witnessed.
When I finally put the universe in a box and measured it I could see a Divine Architects hand in it. But I put God outside of it. Because I believed Divine perfection would not enter. Again I was young.
When You hit bottom a realization will occur. God Made the rules to govern the Universe. Why would he not come to us in flesh.
Jesus says none know the Father but the Son. And none come to the Father but By the son. You see While I was praying to The Father it was in vain. The reprieve I was given was to give me time to Repent.
Jesus says there is no greater love than to lay down ones life for the sake of his friends. You see I sacrificed my beliefs and Repented them. I acknowledge that Jesus is my savior and am baptized by fire. In the Name of the Father The Son and the Holy Ghost. When this occurs you put on the whole armor of God. Now there is nothing to fear. You fear the Lord and there is nothing fear.
Sorry, I need an example. I cannot speculate to speculation.
Like?
Perhaps the most obvious example is the Holocaust. If ever there was a time for God to intervene, there it was. Who can ever count the hundreds of millions of prayers which were no doubt spoken by tens of millions of captives either being worked to death or who went right to the gas chambers.
And yet, not a single -real- miracle. Their escape attempts, their rebellions, they all ended in failure. God granted them nothing. In fact, what I find interesting is how Hitler managed to "miraculously" escape death by assassination 42 separate times. Most of us would be awestruck at having survived just one such assassination attempt in the way Hitler did and would probably thank God profusely. Imagine doing it 42 times. And yes, Hitler did thank some kind of higher power. "Providence" is what he called it, that power which destined him to be a great and powerful leader.
It was almost as if God -wanted- the Holocaust to happen. Or ... it was almost as if there was no God at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinacled
Why do the wicked live a long prosperous life next to the just man dying young?
Is it because God is merciful and gives the wicked time to repent?
Personally, I find this obsession with repenting to be utterly repugnant. I think this way because Christianity quite literally beats a person down like a husband abusing his wife until there is no pride, dignity, or self-worth left in many adherents to the religion. And I know beyond doubt that this kind of submission is precisely what the early cult leaders wanted; submissive members are less likely to either revolt against the leadership or leave the flock.
And now we have an entire civilization bent on repenting to a god all the time - when I feel it is far, far, far more important to apologize the person you have wronged. And if your "sin" was victimless, then who cares.
However, your speculation here doesn't really make sense unless you believe we exist in this life just so we can repeatedly sin and repent, and once we fall below a certain, unknowable "sin level" God kills us because we don't need to repent anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinacled
Maybe the just mans work is complete with god and he'll rest?
Why would any human have to work for God? God is omnipotent. Why bother sending a fallible human being who might screw things up and take a lot longer to accomplish whatever the mission is ... when God can just will it to happen, come into existence, or whatever it is that God wants.
Yeah, that's the problem with worshiping a god that has a long list of superlative qualities. They start to contradict each other and the need for humans becomes less and less. An omniscient god would not need to test his worshipers. An omnipotent god would not need to have servants. An omni-benevolent god would not need to judge and condemn people to hell. A perfect god would not need to be worshiped or even loved.
Perhaps, the more likely scenario, is that there just isn't a god at all; the just man dying young and the criminal living to old age was just random chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinacled
If there is a God then he would have authority of time. So the measure of such to each of us is his to give.
Let me ask you a question about a hypothetical set of circumstances. Let us suppose that a scientist in a lab, while trying to ascertain how life began, accidentally (or even deliberately) created an intelligent species from absolutely nothing.
Assuming that this newly-formed intelligent species thought of the scientist as their Creator and God (and in a way, he is), just how much latitude would you give this scientist regarding the treatment of these creatures?
I ask because it seems many believers think that, because God is God, he bears no responsibility for creating us, that it is perfectly moral for God to flagrantly murder people for whatever whimsical reason crosses his mind. Would we give that same latitude to a scientist?
And no, the argument saying God is a god whereas a human is a human, won't work with me. Because we can assume that these intelligent creatures believe that the scientist is -their- God; they have no idea of how limited a human being is. Just like we might not really understand how limited God might be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinacled
Personally I was never happier than when I lived out of a tent in the wilderness for a year.. I was provided everything that was needed. I tell you animals are crazy on full moons.
You might have been happy ... I would not be. Then again, being disabled, I would be all but imprisoned in that tent since I can't just go wandering around the wilderness.
[quote=Shirina;36080051]Perhaps the most obvious example is the Holocaust. If ever there was a time for God to intervene, there it was. Who can ever count the hundreds of millions of prayers which were no doubt spoken by tens of millions of captives either being worked to death or who went right to the gas chambers.
And yet, not a single -real- miracle. Their escape attempts, their rebellions, they all ended in failure. God granted them nothing. In fact, what I find interesting is how Hitler managed to "miraculously" escape death by assassination 42 separate times. Most of us would be awestruck at having survived just one such assassination attempt in the way Hitler did and would probably thank God profusely. Imagine doing it 42 times. And yes, Hitler did thank some kind of higher power. "Providence" is what he called it, that power which destined him to be a great and powerful leader.
It was almost as if God -wanted- the Holocaust to happen. Or ... it was almost as if there was no God at all.
Why would any human have to work for God? . A perfect god would not need to be worshiped or even loved.
Uncanny. it' s like looking at a recording of my past self's thoughts.
You nailed the paradox on the head. The equation. The parallel of good and evil in free will. If there was no evil would you serve God? Or if there is no God would you serve evil?
If there was no evil would you serve God? Or if there is no God would you serve evil?
Why would I want to serve God when he just might show up and order me to kill my children (well, if I had any children).
I would rather serve my fellow man.
Oh, and I don't believe there is a god and I certainly don't serve evil. I know some Christians think that if you're not a Christian, you're automatically in league with the Devil, but that's ridiculous. Honestly, I live a pretty sin-free life and I'd be hard pressed to dredge up something to repent for were I in a confession booth.
"Uh, Father, um, I guess I repent for lying to my grandmother when I said I wasn't going out on the porch to change the light bulb ... because I knew if she thought I was doing it, she would try to go out there and do it herself, and she's 90 and suffers from dementia. And she's already fallen half a dozen times requiring a doctor's attention. So, uh, yeah I guess I'm sorry for trying to protect my grandmother."
Um, I really don't know .... (shrug)
I'm just making the point that, even without god, we don't embrace evil by default. Many non-believers are more moral and good-hearted than a goodly number of Christians.
That is why today's view of the church is wrong.
If they were the church they would claim to be the church of God. Not the church of denomination.
I spoke with a baptist on the subject of his baptism. He believes you have to be dunked in water to be saved. But at the same time he believes Jesus saves. So i asked is there a marriage without the ceremony? He responded that is known as common law marriage. So i said there must be a lot of common law Christians out there.
What the denominations do today was spoken of in the Bible by the prophets.. They put on a yoke. And in so they create a stumbling block for those seeking God. Jesus says, my yoke is easy my burden is light.
Bottom line is Jesus saved us in spirit. That is what is known as the good news.
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