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If you did read, the rest of your response here establishes that you failed to understand. That you are responding at all establishes that you failed to understand.
An empty throw away reply from you which means nothing, and simply dodges having to actually reply to my post. The fact is you made an assumption, and it was wrong. Deal with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
Wow, you really have no understanding of the discussion.
Simply ranting that all and sundry do not understand, and then retreating back into your box, does not add anything to the conversation. It just makes it look like you have nothing to say, but feel compelled to post anyway.
If you have something to say, say it. If people fail to understand, explain it better. Simple as. But ranting at people and running away demeans you, not them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
we have Nozzferrahhtoo who has no interest in prevailing over others on these boards and is willing to argue for as long as it takes to get people to see that
Misrepresenting me and building straw man versions of me does not help your cause either.
Wow, you really have no understanding of the discussion.
I am an atheist.
Summing up we have orogenicman who doesn't ever feel superior, simply more enlightened than others, we have Nozzferrahhtoo who has no interest in prevailing over others on these boards and is willing to argue for as long as it takes to get people to see that, and now you who seems to think I'm championing religion.
Oh I understand quite well, you're calling yourself an atheist when if fact you are not. You are an agnostic at best who likes to argue with atheists. What I see is you trying to put labels on everyone here like there is some possible way to know people from the things that they type. A style of writing does not a personality make, it's just a way of communicating, which you do very poorly. Carry on, and you can label me agnostic-atheist because that's what I am. It doesn't define me but since you are so into labeling, there you go.
Which is another deflection given you are not getting around to presenting ANY evidence to convince ANY atheists.
Take Climate Change for example. The vast majority of scientists working in this field by far accept the evidence for this and the conclusions. They are aware that presenting the evidence for this is not going to convince everyone. Some people simply will not understand the evidence. Some people will simply stick their head in the sand and not even listen to it. Some people will understand it but remain unconvinced.
Why should I go to the efforts of presenting evidence when there is no way you would ever consider it for a second? I've played that game before. For example, I once presented evidence of a miracle healing. Not good enough, that's just a personal story. Then I presented evidence of the healing with name and location of the doctor. A quote from the doctor saying that the healing was supernatural. Not good enough. I presented photos of MRI scans. Still not good enough. It basically came down to the atheist retreating to the pathetic response being, "well if it is not documented in a medical journal, it never happened." Someone like you can always find an excuse to deny a reality. This is why we have ppl who are convinced that the moon landing never happened.
As for climate change, it would not be a highly debatable topic if the evidence was so airtight and undisputable as you suggest.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
But.... and here is the important part so let me highlight it so you actually read it:
They present the evidence ANYWAY in order to convince as many people of it as possible, because the evidence is there, they have it, and so they shared it..
What they do NOT do is withhold and hide the evidence and rant and whine that they will not present it at all because no one will believe them, or it will not convince everyone, or someone might not like it.
No that would be cop out, cowardly, excuse making. They do not sit around talking about how much evidence there is. They simply PRESENT IT.
All people around here are asking is that you do the same. Stop claiming there is evidence when there is not. Simply present what you think you have, or leave the field.
No you do not. You just see things you are actively and willfully misrepresenting as "anger" because straw men versions of atheists are much easier to deal with for you than actual ones.
And it's funny how I rarely hear of these scientists admit that they were wrong. Did they apologize for scaring ppl in the 70s when they boldly claimed that we were headed for an ice age? Or how about the acid rain scare in the 80s? Killer bees? It seems to me like these impartial scientists seem to thrive on scaring ppl. I guess it keeps them well funded in their research.
You can call it a straw man all you want, but you certainly fit the stereotype. I haven't seen one response from you ever where you was even remotely friendly.
Oh I understand quite well, you're calling yourself an atheist when if fact you are not. You are an agnostic at best who likes to argue with atheists. What I see is you trying to put labels on everyone here like there is some possible way to know people from the things that they type. A style of writing does not a personality make, it's just a way of communicating, which you do very poorly. Carry on, and you can label me agnostic-atheist because that's what I am. It doesn't define me but since you are so into labeling, there you go.
Yeah, you have certainly established credibility here. First you thought I was defending religion. Now you have decided that I am attacking atheists in the name of agnosticism. Both were delivered by you with the same angry conviction, the second as though your first wrong guess had not taken place.
As noted, you are light years away from understanding the discussion. None of the above is remotely true. Try reading my first post, try understanding what it is saying. Quit wasting my time with your inability to comprehend.
You won't find evidence by crossing your arms and telling God, ok I might believe in you if you do a parlor trick for me right now. From the little I know about God, He looks at the hearts of men, not their actions. If someone has a heart that truly wants to seek and know more about God, He will reveal himself.
In other words, you have to believe in order to believe. Yeah, I know that sounds trite, but that is, in fact, what you're saying. God will only reveal himself to people who search for him - which means you have to believe God exists on some level, perhaps subconsciously.
God "preaching to the choir" is rather redundant.
If God gave a rat's .... tail about atheists, WE would be the ones he would be focusing on instead of giving all of the so-called "evidence" to people who already believe. What it sounds like to me is just a whole lotta confirmation bias goin' on.
Turning a bona fide atheist into a believer, now there is a challenge. No, not because he survived a brutal car accident or because he won the lottery or because of some vague and unidentifiable "feeling" he received in the middle of the night. Nope. Even if the atheist believed during all of the excitement, no doubt he would come to his senses eventually and be an atheist again.
No, the evidence would have to be so profound as to truly be a life-altering experience. And, it would have to satisfy the very exacting standards for evidence that most atheists have. Things like surviving a car accident or winning lottery can be put down as simple luck. People have survived all kinds of crazy things, even falling thousands of feet out of an airplane. Weird experiences and epiphanies can be chalked up as stress, fatigue, lack of sleep, a chemical in their food, even just a biological hiccup.
The evidence would have to be mighty convincing AND there would have to be witnesses and some kind of tangible proof. Otherwise, any real atheist will begin doubting it a few days later.
So ... here's the drill as far as evidence is concerned. As an atheist, I literally have NO idea what might convince me that God exists - but God, if he exists, would know.
And if this God were truly loving, fair and just, and if this God really cared about my everlasting soul, then this God would do whatever it took to keep me out of Hell. After all, if you had children, wouldn't you do anything within your power to keep them safe? You, as a loving parent, wouldn't stand there stroking your beard or twirling your hair thinking about it. "Weelllll, I love you honey, but I'm just not willing to do 100 jumping jacks in my underwear while standing at a busy intersection. No, that's just too beneath me, so you'll just have to endure whatever horrors that await you!"
Finding God when seeking God is easy and puts all the work on your shoulders. What a silly God playing hide-and-go-seek with potential worshipers - like God is hiding in the hall closet while atheists count to twenty.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
But I only see anger and hatred from a lot of atheists towards God.
Once again, I'll explain: We do not have any hatred toward God. However, we do take umbrage with religion's concept of God.
Nearly all - if not literally all - deity-centric religions have created a judgmental god, one who is perpetually angry, wrathful, and jealous, a god who has no respect for life and will gladly snuff out your existence for the most trival offenses. These primitive, unenlightened god-concepts are extremely dangerous. The fear and anxiety caused by believing in these unsavory beings causes ordinarily good people to do some very despicable things. There are a number of people on this very forum who are focused on the "end of days," our moral decline, and God's anger that is palpable enough for someone like daylux to decree that God is abandoning America. THIS is what happens, what has always happened throughout history.
Worshiping and believing in these supervillains with anger management issues has caused so much needless bloodshed and suffering in an effort to placate these gods - who are essentially un-placate-able. Whenever bad times occur, the scapegoating starts. Jews, women, gays, liberals, feminists, intellectuals, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, hell, even cats have all been blamed at one time or another for this famine or that plague or a growing apostacy among the populace. We do the same thing even now despite living in a technological wonderland with the sum of humanity's knowledge just a few mouseclicks away.
We STILL cling to this absurd notion of an angry God ready and waiting to send you to hell if you don't straighten up and do as your told. And if you have people living in your nation who aren't straightening up and being devout little fundamentalists, well, the whole country will suffer God's wrath - so it's all their fault. Yeah, them, those people over there ------>
Because they're different, because they're atheists, they're women who want rights, they're heathens, hedonists, non-religious, they're in the wrong denomination, their hats are different, they have funny accents, they vote differently, they support the wrong candidate, they're homosexual, they're ivory tower intellectuals, but the bottom line is ... hey, they're not us. And that's why God is throwing a conniption fit right now by wrecking our economy and sending storms and landslides and wildfires and rampaging school shooters and, and, and ... even this painful hangnail I got this morning is the fault of people who aren't us!
And you wonder why we atheists get just a little upset over it all? Religion is perhaps THE most single divisive issue in all of humanity's history.
We don't hate God - because we don't believe God exists. We do sometimes hate what a belief in God can do to a person. Can belief drive people to be good? Sure ... but chances are these people would be good anyway. It's part of their nature. But evil people with God on their side will attract support even from good people, as we've seen here on this forum with the Alabama judge or the Arizona bill legalizing discrimination. I doubt any good person would have EVER supported people like that if not for the religious element.
So yeah ... there it is. My verbose explaination. Take it or leave it.
Yeah, you have certainly established credibility here. First you thought I was defending religion. Now you have decided that I am attacking atheists in the name of agnosticism. Both were delivered by you with the same angry conviction, the second as though your first wrong guess had not taken place.
As noted, you are light years away from understanding the discussion. None of the above is remotely true. Try reading my first post, try understanding what it is saying. Quit wasting my time with your inability to comprehend.
I'm not the one who's angry and apparently I struck a nerve. You're not a very nice person, I don't care to have any discussions with you no matter what the subject. Time to check yourself and stop beating up everyone else with your condescending attitude.
Once again, I'll explain: We do not have any hatred toward God. However, we do take umbrage with religion's concept of God.
Nearly all - if not literally all - deity-centric religions have created a judgmental god, one who is perpetually angry, wrathful, and jealous, a god who has no respect for life and will gladly snuff out your existence for the most trival offenses. These primitive, unenlightened god-concepts are extremely dangerous. The fear and anxiety caused by believing in these unsavory beings causes ordinarily good people to do some very despicable things. There are a number of people on this very forum who are focused on the "end of days," our moral decline, and God's anger that is palpable enough for someone like daylux to decree that God is abandoning America. THIS is what happens, what has always happened throughout history.
Your incisive intellect has cogently presented the central issue with religions and their concepts of God, Shirina. But perhaps the MOST troubling aspect is the belief that God requires US mere humans to impose His Will on others. What kind of a God needs mere humans to enforce ANYTHING???? That is what leads to your next justified complaint.
Quote:
Worshiping and believing in these supervillains with anger management issues has caused so much needless bloodshed and suffering in an effort to placate these gods - who are essentially un-placate-able. Whenever bad times occur, the scapegoating starts. Jews, women, gays, liberals, feminists, intellectuals, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, hell, even cats have all been blamed at one time or another for this famine or that plague or a growing apostacy among the populace. We do the same thing even now despite living in a technological wonderland with the sum of humanity's knowledge just a few mouseclicks away.
This is the most confounding aspect in this day and age . . . that despite our enormous strides in knowledge and understanding that these evils still ARE perpetuated by religions. It boggles the mind. It also explains the fundamentalist fanatics who seek to prevent education of women.
Quote:
We STILL cling to this absurd notion of an angry God ready and waiting to send you to hell if you don't straighten up and do as your told. And if you have people living in your nation who aren't straightening up and being devout little fundamentalists, well, the whole country will suffer God's wrath - so it's all their fault. Yeah, them, those people over there ------>
Because they're different, because they're atheists, they're women who want rights, they're heathens, hedonists, non-religious, they're in the wrong denomination, their hats are different, they have funny accents, they vote differently, they support the wrong candidate, they're homosexual, they're ivory tower intellectuals, but the bottom line is ... hey, they're not us. And that's why God is throwing a conniption fit right now by wrecking our economy and sending storms and landslides and wildfires and rampaging school shooters and, and, and ... even this painful hangnail I got this morning is the fault of people who aren't us!
And you wonder why we atheists get just a little upset over it all? Religion is perhaps THE most single divisive issue in all of humanity's history.
We don't hate God - because we don't believe God exists. We do sometimes hate what a belief in God can do to a person. Can belief drive people to be good? Sure ... but chances are these people would be good anyway. It's part of their nature. But evil people with God on their side will attract support even from good people, as we've seen here on this forum with the Alabama judge or the Arizona bill legalizing discrimination. I doubt any good person would have EVER supported people like that if not for the religious element.
Amen! I love the way you express things so clearly and intelligently . . . amazing for an atheist.j/k
In other words, you have to believe in order to believe. Yeah, I know that sounds trite, but that is, in fact, what you're saying. God will only reveal himself to people who search for him - which means you have to believe God exists on some level, perhaps subconsciously.
God "preaching to the choir" is rather redundant.
I wouldn't call it having to believe to believe. You have to at least be open to the possibility that God is real. Atheists are not. You won't even consider for a second that you might be wrong. If I felt there was even 1% that I could be wrong and actually go to hell, I would be out there investigating miracle stories, going to churches, talking to preachers, trying to understand if there is any real foundation for their faith, or is it just all wishful thinking? God reveals himself in different ways to each human because we are all unique creations designed with a purpose. My mom built her faith early on in life from a childhood experience. Her father was having a massive heart attack and turning blue. He whispered to her to pray for him. She did, and my grandfather instantly recovered and starting laughing and praising God that he had been healed. Just one of countless stories of supernatural experiences. The more you would hear, the hardest it would become to retreat to the only atheist explanation that people are just lying or hallucinating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
If God gave a rat's .... tail about atheists, WE would be the ones he would be focusing on instead of giving all of the so-called "evidence" to people who already believe. What it sounds like to me is just a whole lotta confirmation bias goin' on.
Turning a bona fide atheist into a believer, now there is a challenge. No, not because he survived a brutal car accident or because he won the lottery or because of some vague and unidentifiable "feeling" he received in the middle of the night. Nope. Even if the atheist believed during all of the excitement, no doubt he would come to his senses eventually and be an atheist again.
Even the demons believe. God simply doing a parlor trick to convince that He is real wont' matter if you hold anger and contempt in your heart against Him. You have to want to follow Him and turn away from sin in order to receive salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
So ... here's the drill as far as evidence is concerned. As an atheist, I literally have NO idea what might convince me that God exists - but God, if he exists, would know.
And if this God were truly loving, fair and just, and if this God really cared about my everlasting soul, then this God would do whatever it took to keep me out of Hell. After all, if you had children, wouldn't you do anything within your power to keep them safe? You, as a loving parent, wouldn't stand there stroking your beard or twirling your hair thinking about it. "Weelllll, I love you honey, but I'm just not willing to do 100 jumping jacks in my underwear while standing at a busy intersection. No, that's just too beneath me, so you'll just have to endure whatever horrors that await you!"
See, your comments here sound like you have contempt for God. You believe He is a jerk, and certainly not worth worshipping. You want God to behave and act the way you would imagine a fair and righteous Creator to behave. The problem is your imagination is only limited to your human experience. You don't know all the facts to reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
We don't hate God - because we don't believe God exists. We do sometimes hate what a belief in God can do to a person. Can belief drive people to be good? Sure ... but chances are these people would be good anyway. It's part of their nature. But evil people with God on their side will attract support even from good people, as we've seen here on this forum with the Alabama judge or the Arizona bill legalizing discrimination. I doubt any good person would have EVER supported people like that if not for the religious element.
If atheists didn't hate God, they wouldn't spend so much time attacking His Word. The atheist Bible is one of the foulest works of creation born out of an extreme desire to rip apart the Bible, verse by verse.
I'm not the one who's angry and apparently I struck a nerve. You're not a very nice person, I don't care to have any discussions with you no matter what the subject. Time to check yourself and stop beating up everyone else with your condescending attitude.
You are angry with me because I pointed out your embarrassing comprehension mistake. You should direct that anger at yourself.
And if you do not care to have any discussions with me, then shouldn't you stop directing posts my way?
You have to at least be open to the possibility that God is real. Atheists are not.
You're forgetting that the vast majority of atheists started out as being religious - quite a number of them were VERY religious, even fanatical about their faith. I even had the benefit of being once a Hindu AND a Christian and I still ended up an atheist. Our minds were more than open - but guess what: Yeah, nothing happened. I guess God wasn't hiding in the hall closet after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You won't even consider for a second that you might be wrong.
Okay, speaking rather bluntly here - you're right, I don't really consider that I'm wrong. I will sometimes contemplate what "god" could be, what I would like him to be, but the Bible? The Qu'ran? The Torah? The Bhagavad Gita? No ... I don't think for a second I'm wrong.
Because what's the point? When it comes to religion, there's no use in sitting on the fence or having doubts. If religion is correct, then I would have to be a true believer, someone who loves God and worships him and blah blah. It's all or nothing with religion, so doubting whether I'm wrong is pointless unless I'm willing to arbitrarily pick a religion to follow and truly believe in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If I felt there was even 1% that I could be wrong and actually go to hell, I would be out there investigating miracle stories, going to churches, talking to preachers, trying to understand if there is any real foundation for their faith, or is it just all wishful thinking?
That's just it - I don't feel there is even a 1% chance, or even a 0.00000001% chance of going to hell. Now, I can have doubts about whether there is a god, a creator force, some power much higher than us that exists out there somewhere. But do I believe in an all-powerful and omni-benevolent God who sends people to everlasting torture for not worshiping him? No ... I don't believe for even a nanosecond that an entity like that exists.
Besides, Pascal's Wager is fallacious. Even if I picked Christianity to avoid going to hell, there is nothing that says I couldn't be wrong about the religion I picked, thus ending up in some other religion's version of hell because I've been worshiping the wrong god all this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
God reveals himself in different ways to each human because we are all unique creations designed with a purpose. My mom built her faith early on in life from a childhood experience. Her father was having a massive heart attack and turning blue. He whispered to her to pray for him. She did, and my grandfather instantly recovered and starting laughing and praising God that he had been healed. Just one of countless stories of supernatural experiences. The more you would hear, the hardest it would become to retreat to the only atheist explanation that people are just lying or hallucinating.
Whatever happened with your grandfather, I don't think for a second it was God. Why would you WANT to believe that? Because you would be worshiping a God that would stand around watching your grandfather die, a God who wouldn't lift a single omnipotent finger to help him unless your mother belted out some praises and platitudes to him. Is that the kind of God you think he is? Because that's what you're saying here. And since we can't rewind the clock and see what would have happened if your mom hadn't prayed, who can really say that it was your specific God that healed him? It could have been someone else's god, or maybe it was just a god we know nothing about and doesn't care about getting the credit. Or maybe, the most likely explanation, is that there were no gods at all and he would have gotten better with or without prayers. But there is not one thing in that story that screams to me, "God did it!"
Unless I experience a supernatural event - say for instance I pray and my pain vanished never to return - I might reconsider. But that hasn't happened, and I would be pretty damn arrogant to believe that God would heal me when there are millions of people who need healing, many who pray every day, and whose prayers are never answered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
God simply doing a parlor trick to convince that He is real wont' matter if you hold anger and contempt in your heart against Him. You have to want to follow Him and turn away from sin in order to receive salvation.
Heh, I couldn't sin if I wanted to. It's not like I'm on this end of the computer living it up and having the high life, ya know? Besides, like you said before, if God exists, then he would know who I am. He would see the kind of person I have become, and he would see past whatever bravado I might display on the surface. But you seem to believe in a God who is so perfect, so loving, so wonderful - yet would stand there while your grandfather has a heart attack, doing nothing until some prayers are said. That's NOT a loving, wonderful god. That is an egomaniac. Sorry to have to say that, but seriously, think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
See, your comments here sound like you have contempt for God. You believe He is a jerk, and certainly not worth worshipping.
You're right, I don't think your specific god is worth worshiping. Yes, I do think he's a jerk. And no, I don't have contempt for the god itself, but for the fact that so many people have chosen to revere such a nasty god-concept. It changes people, affects people ... affects and INfects, because of the absolutist nature of religious belief. In fact, you've demonstrated WHY I think he (the concept) is a jerk when you told me about your grandfather.
To me, it is totally insane. Just mind-bogglingly, flabbergastingly, jaw-droppingly, eye-bulgingly insane. There is a massive cognitive disconnect when it comes to this god - who was a complete and utter tyrant in the Old Testament and still people think he's so perfect and loving and the source of morality.
It's like the woman who wrecked her car and was trapped in her seatbelt for six days until someone in a helicopter spotted her car. And of course the first thing she does is giggle like an idiot about God and praising God and how God must have a special destiny planned out for her and gush gush gush. All the while I'm thinking, "Hey, lady, if your God was that great, why did he sit around playing tiddlywinks (or whatever) for six days before bothering to get up off his divine duff and rescue you? He sure wasn't too busy magically feeding the starving kids in Africa, that's for damn sure."
To my mind, all of this praising and worshiping of God after being put through these horrible situations is just -- insane. Thus every time you tell a story about how God saved your grandfather, I can tell you that God didn't do diddly to save MY grandfather - who I watched die in front of me. Is your grandfather somehow more special than mine was? Because that's what is being implied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You want God to behave and act the way you would imagine a fair and righteous Creator to behave. The problem is your imagination is only limited to your human experience. You don't know all the facts to reality.
Well then, what's morality? What, then, is even moral? WHAT can be considered a moral or immoral act if God, who is supposed to be the source of love and morality, can run around acting like a complete sod to the point where Hitler looks like a saint by comparison? At least Hitler only wanted to kill the Jews and the commies, not the whole world - animals included.
So yeah, I think I have a pretty good grasp of how a fair and just creator should behave. If this creator has a completely different definition of "fair" and "just," then how do you even know what kind of entity you're bending your knees to? If God is not beholden to the ideals WE understand as fair and just, you cannot have any inkling at all whether you'll end up in heaven or hell - because he could toss you into the lake of fire based on some bizarre, somehow unfathomable system of so-called justice that makes absolutely no sense to you. Isn't that so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If atheists didn't hate God, they wouldn't spend so much time attacking His Word.
How many times do we have to explain this? We don't care about God's word as long as his word isn't being shoved down our throats. I like my own word, thanks, though. But as long as Christians oppress homosexuals, try to suppress contraception, continue to back legislation that would allow school bullying and flagrant discrimination, as long as Christians defend judges who say non-Christians have no Constitutional rights, as long as Christians continue pretending that this country is THEIR country and we have to abide by their rules (as if the rest of us are just unwelcomed guests), then we will attack. Believe me, we will be attacking quite hard, and the Constitution is a potent weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The atheist Bible is one of the foulest works of creation born out of an extreme desire to rip apart the Bible, verse by verse.
I've never read an atheist bible, I've never heard of an atheist bible, and I have no desire to read an atheist bible. We don't have tenets and precepts and rules to follow. We don't have prophets and mystics and holy men directing our lives. We simply don't believe - and we would disbelieve very quietly and respectfully if people could believe in the same way. But they don't. They have to push and bully and browbeat - and when we atheists stand up and say enough is enough ... LOL suddenly we become the bullies. I dunno, that by itself is some kind of transformational miracle - when the person on the defensive becomes the bully.
And wow, writing that post probably did my hands in for the rest of the day. Ouch.
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