The Catholic Laity Has Rights (church, Holy Spirit, quote, faith)

[ted08721]

We’ve got rights in the Code of Canon Law. Canon 212 states:

“They [the laity] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.”

[ted08721]

This is important to remember when others tell us to shut up and just pray and obey.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by ted08721

This is important to remember when others tell us to shut up and just pray and obey.

I agree with you.

I must confess to you, that I have believed your posts to be overly harsh at times.

But I'm now coming to see the wisom in your methods.

[ted08721]

Originally Posted by oakback

i agree with you.

I must confess to you, that i have believed your posts to be overly harsh at times.

But i'm now coming to see the wisom in your methods.

[Thomas R.]

If they discuss "their views on matters which concern the good of the Church" and "always respect the integrity of faith and morals" I agree. St. Catherine of Siena would criticize some Popes on corruption of bishops or the like. Speaking up on matters concerning the welfare of the Church or its people can be very noble.

So long as it's agreed the laity have no role in deciding dogma or doctrine than I guess I'm cool by you as well.

[cncracer]

Cannon Law might be expectable to run the internal operations of the church’s business, but when the church has broken secular laws they should and are held accountable to those secular laws. The use of Cannon Law as an excuse for the church to break laws is not and should not be acceptable in today’s world.

[ted08721]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

So long as it's agreed the laity have no role in deciding dogma or doctrine than I guess I'm cool by you as well.

Vatican II taught that we the people of God are the Church and that the Holy Spirit moves freely through us and that we have to be consulted on all matters teachings etc.
The hierarchy is not the whole Church only a part of the whole.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
91) All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them and guides them into all truth.

Right now I am looking at one of the books given out to myself and others by my church to those that took part in our Parish renewal program some years ago called Why Catholic? Journey Through the Catechism "The Profession of Faith"/ What we believe.
It has the "Nihil Obstrat" and "Impimatur"

In section 2 page 9 it states:

The popes and bishops do not make decisions on matters of faith and morals in total isolation.
They reflect with "the body" of the faithful Catholics who have particular gifts.

When was the last time the hierarchy asked your opinion on any matters concerning faith and morals?

It goes on to state:

Good dialogue between theologians and the teaching office of the Church has been mutually beneficial in building up the Body of Christ.

Last time I checked the hierarchy was either forbidding theologians from teaching in Catholic institutions or publishing any new works that in anyway disagreed with the opinions of the current hierarchy without making changes to their work.
Most theologians have decided they would rather not publish any new work rather than to have to make changes to it.

It goes on to say that "Good dialogue is necersary among all the faithful."

I do not see this happening, in fact John Paul II had forbidded any discussion on ordination of women, he said it was off the table for discussion.
In fact the bishop of Lincoln Nebraska ( Fabian Bruskewitz ) excommnicated a bunch of people that supported ordination of women.

btw last time I checked Bishop Bruskewitz was not in compliance with the measures put in placeby National Council of catholic Bishops to protect children from sexual predators

[ted08721]

Website for the above mentioned book

RENEW International (http://www.renewintl.org/Renew/home.nsf/vLaunch/Home?OpenDocument&MainLink=/Renew/home.nsf/vPages/WhyCathFaithMatls?OpenDocument - broken link)

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by ted08721

Website for the above mentioned book

RENEW International (http://www.renewintl.org/Renew/home.nsf/vLaunch/Home?OpenDocument&MainLink=/Renew/home.nsf/vPages/WhyCathFaithMatls?OpenDocument - broken link)

"RENEW" was great IMO. Seemed to have a big push there for a while.
But in my parish at least, the old die hard traditsionalists seemed uncomfortable with it.

[ted08721]

The renewal program was very interesting, I was involved in the small group sharing where we would meet in the group leader's home, we had about eight or nine in our group.
The group that I belonged to was highly unusual, although it was only suppose to be for Catholics in the parish the group was infiltrated by several non Catholics that held an anti Catholic view.
It was my first experience in sharing with a group of people on such a personal level, I was not so outspoken as I am now, I was probably the most quiet person in the group if you could believe that.
This was back in the 80s? or early 90s? when I was not very sure about what I actually believed about the Church, I had more questions than answers.
It was with great deal of difficulty that I confronted the situation when no one else in the group would.

A few years ago I took part in the renewal program again at my parish, that is when I got the book I quoted from, I basically stated some of the same points that I mentioned in my previous post to the renewal group, I was asked to leave the group by its leader who had been one of those that held the anti Catholic bias from the original group, he told me he had to protect his sheep.
I always felt there was a bit of irony in that.