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And let me guess their pain and anguish and humiliation was the only way they could have learned this. What did the molester learn? Especially if never caught?
What did the rape victim learn? and the rapist?
What did the accident victim learn? That there are accidents? Pain and suffering the only way to teach huh?
Really weak argument for a loving god.
The point of all this is that an all-loving god allows his creation to have free will.
Without free will an all-loving god is nothing but a petty dictator.
FYI rape generally is not an accident.
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
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So I guess in heaven, where allegedly there is no evil or suffering, there is also no learning, no good and no free will?
Only if you believe in a perfect utopia.
Or believe that, like in Star Trek, technology & science will solve all our problems.
Originally Posted by ACEsydney
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As for saying the rape of a child is a "learning experience", that is completely asinine.
What would be asinine is implying that it is necessary to rape children to learn that rape is an act of evil.
Get used to the fact that:
a) your life is nothing but a series of learning experiences
b) life = suffering.
Originally Posted by Nea1 The point of all this is that an all-loving god allows his creation to have free will.
Without free will an all-loving god is nothing but a petty dictator.
FYI rape generally is not an accident.
Neither is any of "God's" alleged creations an accident, right? Well according to theists, God created rapists. He also created people who would never have even thought of rape if it didn't exist in the world, so obviously a world full of people without the urge to rape would be possible for an all-powerful god. So, what's the point of God creating rape?
Or even, what's the point of natural disasters, cancer, etc? What lesson does a cancer patient learn? Or an earthquake victim? Or a child dying of starvation because of famine?
The only answer that makes sense to me is, there is no point.
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend Only if you believe in a perfect utopia.
So there's rape and other horrific things in your heaven?
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Or believe that, like in Star Trek, technology & science will solve all our problems.
Not sure what this has to do with here..
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Originally Posted by ACEsydney What would be asinine is implying that it is necessary to rape children to learn that rape is an act of evil.
Get used to the fact that:
a) your life is nothing but a series of learning experiences
b) life = suffering.
But some people suffer a lot more than others, and some suffer a lot more than what would be effective positive teaching. Otherwise why wouldn't you allow school teachers to rape kids to teach them lessons?
Neither is any of "God's" alleged creations an accident, right? Well according to theists, God created rapists. He also created people who would never have even thought of rape if it didn't exist in the world, so obviously a world full of people without the urge to rape would be possible for an all-powerful god. So, what's the point of God creating rape?
The point of all this is that God has given us free will.
If you want to do good God will not stop you, nor will he stop you if you decide to do evil. Or do you consider God giving man free will an act of impotence (or incompetence) instead of the ultimate act of love?
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Or even, what's the point of natural disasters, cancer, etc? What lesson does a cancer patient learn? Or an earthquake victim? Or a child dying of starvation because of famine?
The only answer that makes sense to me is, there is no point.
Are you telling me that you don't believe that actions have consequences?
Or do you believe that life should be completely free of suffering?
But life without the choice of doing good or evil makes life inconsequential.
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So there's rape and other horrific things in your heaven?
What makes you believe that I believe in heaven?
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Otherwise why wouldn't you allow school teachers to rape kids to teach them lessons?
Because you should treat others in the exact same way that you yourself want to be treated.
I dunno about you but I don’t want to be raped, therefore I will not allow school teachers to rape kids.
The problem with philosophy is that it can become so abstract that it looses its practicality; this is also the case with your other universe.
We do not live in the universe where there is no suffering, we live in this one.
We live in this universe presumably because god made it this way. If he were all powerful, he could have made it another way that would still accomplish all the same goals. To ignore that is to be illogical. Philosophy is the only way to explore the depths of what it means to be all-powerful.
Hueffenhardt:
Your argument is not in error. I too wish I could find holes in your reasoning (and have tried to do so for many years of my life). The fact is, the logical nature of your argument cannot be comprehended by people who choose not to open their eyes.
You propose very simple, concrete absolutes, which are clearly defined. Yet people will choose not to understand these concepts because it goes against what they believe.
The fact remains; either god is not all-loving, or he is not all-powerful, or he is neither, or he does not exist.
Based on the nature of the world around us, you can come to no other conclusion.
Thank you for puting into words the things I have thought, (and tried to convey to others) for so long. It is comforting to know that either I am not crazy, or at least I'm not the only one.
the only reason people suffer is due to karma,thats why some suffer more than others-everything is happening for a reason,
I'm not sure that I have a good grasp of your beliefs. But, I think your beliefs may be outside the realm of what this thread is addressing.
I am simply showing that if there is a god, said god cannot simultaneously possess the attributes of being all-powerful and all-loving.
If you are suggesting that karma was created by god, then my arguments would apply. If you are suggesting that karma exists outside of god or independent of him, then you are pre-supposing that god is not all-powerful which supports my thesis.
What exactly do you define "needless suffering" as? Do we not learn something when we suffer? For example, burning your tongue from hot food. It taught you a lesson... do not eat food that is very hot! I can't really think of suffering that is completely useless or won't help us, my friends....
Suffering may and often does serve a need in the way our reality is currently constructed. My point is that an all-powerful god could have set things up differently. All the lessons we learn from suffering now could have been learned without suffering if god had created the universe differently. That is what makes suffering needless. The exact same benefits, growth, development, lessons, etc, could have been accomplished without suffering if god had designed reality that way. If he could not have done that then he would not be all-powerful. So, if one could learn something with suffering or without it, the suffering becomes unnecessary for accomplishing the goal of learning. And since god could have accomplished all goals without suffering, all suffering is needless.
Note: the only goal he could not accomplish without our suffering is the express goal of us suffering for no other reason. If that were his goal, then he is sadistic.
And if one maintains the belief in an all-powerful god, then one must accept that god created needless suffering when he did not have to or for the sole purpose of us suffering. That means that he is a sadist, worse than Hitler or Stalin, etc.
Not again.
1. There is no God
2. If there is a God he is evil.
3. I want no part of God, because he is evil.
Please understand two things.
1. "all loving" is not a biblical concept.
2. Disagreeable behavior does not disprove God.
We live in this universe presumably because god made it this way. If he were all powerful, he could have made it another way that would still accomplish all the same goals. To ignore that is to be illogical. Philosophy is the only way to explore the depths of what it means to be all-powerful.
OK, let's take that presumption as truth. An all-powerful God made the universe this way. Yes, he could have made it another way...but he chose not to. And as his creations within this universe, we don't have any say in the matter.
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The point of all this is that an all-loving god allows his creation to have free will.
Only if you believe in a perfect utopia.
What would be asinine is implying that it is necessary to rape children to learn that rape is an act of evil.
Because you should treat others in the exact same way that you yourself want to be treated.
