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I think most people are curious about people who think differently, that motivates me to read and then post to lots of different threads. A lot of the atheists and agnostics are better read than a lot of the religious people. The way most of them came to their beliefs is by looking thoroughly at religion and deciding it was false by doing lots of research. I think they add lots of positive information and usually a good dose of humor to most of the threads.
I would participate in such threads if I felt that there was a position that was not being adequately represented. For example, the gays in the Bible thread, where I offered some alternative ways to interpret some of those scriptures. I am not a Christian, nor do I believe that I need to follow what the Bible says in any way. However, I have read about the topic a lot and wanted to present a viewpoint within the context that shows that even if one does follow the Bible, that one can interpret it differently than how it is commonly thought.
Sometimes debates seem to become too black and white, ie follow the Bible or go against the Bible, and I want to present an alternative way of interpreting the passages at hand. I find that I am often debating against the evangelical Christians in favor of alternative views like liberal Christianity or LDS or non-Christian religions, and not necessarily always in favor of my own personal beliefs. I think I do this because the evangelical Christians seem to present their position as the one and only right way and everyone else be damned, and I want to present alternatives to this viewpoint. I do this not necessarily for the benefit of the evangelical Christians, but for others who might be reading. I guess my message is, there are other ways to be a Christian, or there are other ways to be religious, or there are other ways to live your life with integrity, etc. besides what they offer as the only way.
I approach religion with the same skepticism that I approach any other topic. I check out the underlying facts to the best of my ability and review the logic used to reach the conclusions presented. I apply this to everything from economics to global warming with side roads into politics and war.
In the case of religion the basic question is “Who or What created the universe?” As that cannot be determined by either observation or experiment I must consider myself an agnostic. That is: I do not either believe or disbelieve in god or religion.
When I observe religion I see groups of people doing things of great good and great evil. I also see many, many swindlers, thieves and power mad maniacs posing as preacher proclaiming that their way is the only way to god and please pay the man with the platter. I have also observed any number of politicians, innumerable insurance salesmen, military recruiters and used car dealers doing the same thing.
I have also met and respected some truly admirable preachers that had only the good of their flock and of humanity in general and only asked for enough money to keep a roof on the church. These were sincere men (or very good actors) that (apparently) believed in what they were doing.
From what I've read on this sight the so called "Christians" are the most condescending and judgmental of all of the religions except maybe fundamentalist Muslims.
People who don't agree with the "extremists" are trying to convince them to lighten up a little bit and stop judging so much.
I've also noticed on this sight that if someone isn't christian the are considered atheist. That is wrong and very unchristian.
You hit the nail on the head. I have noticed that too. The Christians on this board feel that if someone doesn't believe in Jesus, then they are automatically classified as "athiest" but that is just not the case. Just because someone doesn't believe in Jesus, doesnt mean that they don't believe in God...it just means that they don't believe in THEIR God but some other God(s), Goddessess, Buddah, Allah...whatever. It's the wrong view to have.
But of course you would. Yes, Christians here literally do say atheism is false, phony, a lie, only for cynics, only for the blind, only for people who are hateful and can't feel love, etc.
With upmost respect JerZ, I do not agree with this. I've not heard Christians say these things about atheist, and if someone does, that's not very Christ-like. We are all human beings and not everyone is going to believe and that's just the way it is. I think on either side of the board here, that we are passionate about what we believe in.
According to our God, any non-believers will perish and live life eternally in hell. Yes, that is our belief because God says it will happen not because our manly flesh made it up. We believe it because He says it, and we shouldn't be judged by anyone else for believing that just as you shouldn't be judged by us for not believing it. It goes both ways here, ya know? You can believe that or not, that is your decision. I can't make you change your mind and I'm not going to try and beat you with a Bible into submission either. I will not insult you and call you names. We, as Christians, do have to seperate ourselves from certain lifestyles and ways of thinking, and it seems like some people misunderstand that and label us as self-righteous, or judgemental, or that we think we are so perfect or something. But our God instructs us to live a certain way, and we try our best to do that. And it is hard for us, some it's harder for than others. But this is the way our God instructs us and nobody should be judging us for how we are trying to live according to our religion either. Just as with any other religion or non-religion for that matter.
Now I have heard Christians say that the devil is a a phony, false cynical, sets out to blind people and trys to infiltrate hate into people's hearts. According to God's word, it is the truth about satan and we go by God's word. The Bible says that satan is the father of all lies. So, he is who we don't like.
It's not our place to judge anyone. However, we will stand up for our God, anyday, anytime. But I urge Christians to do it in the manner that Christ stood up for Him, He taught about His father, and some people didn't like what He said, and others found refuge and salvation. But Jesus did not judge, the people judged. Jesus was God in man form, so he did not sin, did not judge, did not speak ill words to insult people, but He also was God! I can acknowledge the fact that Christians here are humans, not God and that they will sometimes find themselves heated up and may say things that can hurt. I'm guilty of it as well as anyone else. We all need to try not to do that. But please try to remember that we are only human beings, and to be exactly like Christ is so hard to do, we strive to be that way, but He is just so perfect, and we are not! We have just as much to learn in life as the next person. I think that there sometimes are people here that purposely disrupt the threads trying to cause these arguments and some just get caught up in the little remarks and it just gets to them too much, for those reasons there becomes a facade that the whole group of people (atheists or Christians, whomever) is that specific way and think that specific way. People make errors.....there's no sense in trying to attack, call names, judge, make those little tiny itsy bitsy remarks that they know will bring damage. It's just crazy on here, which is one of the main reasons I've not been coming on here so much anymore, too many personal attacks! Let's all try to stay calm here and respect that someone will definitely have a different opinion, point of view and belief on this forum. Just because we may disagree here or there or all the time, there should still be respect in the way we lay it out. I've learned that myself here. I think many others should try it, it's very liberating to just let go of the remarks that are born from anger and only to attack the other people on their beliefs. The ignore list really helps for some of them. I hope this helps and I want to try to know you all and get along, no matter what your religious beliefs are. Have a wonderful day JerZ, and everyone else!
With upmost respect JerZ, I do not agree with this. I've not heard Christians say these things about atheist, and if someone does, that's not very Christ-like. We are all human beings and not everyone is going to believe and that's just the way it is. I think on either side of the board here, that we are passionate about what we believe in.
According to our God, any non-believers will perish and live life eternally in hell. Yes, that is our belief because God says it will happen not because our manly flesh made it up. We believe it because He says it, and we shouldn't be judged by anyone else for believing that just as you shouldn't be judged by us for not believing it. It goes both ways here, ya know? You can believe that or not, that is your decision. I can't make you change your mind and I'm not going to try and beat you with a Bible into submission either. I will not insult you and call you names. We, as Christians, do have to seperate ourselves from certain lifestyles and ways of thinking, and it seems like some people misunderstand that and label us as self-righteous, or judgemental, or that we think we are so perfect or something. But our God instructs us to live a certain way, and we try our best to do that. And it is hard for us, some it's harder for than others. But this is the way our God instructs us and nobody should be judging us for how we are trying to live according to our religion either. Just as with any other religion or non-religion for that matter.
Now I have heard Christians say that the devil is a a phony, false cynical, sets out to blind people and trys to infiltrate hate into people's hearts. According to God's word, it is the truth about satan and we go by God's word. The Bible says that satan is the father of all lies. So, he is who we don't like.
It's not our place to judge anyone. However, we will stand up for our God, anyday, anytime. But I urge Christians to do it in the manner that Christ stood up for Him, He taught about His father, and some people didn't like what He said, and others found refuge and salvation. But Jesus did not judge, the people judged. Jesus was God in man form, so he did not sin, did not judge, did not speak ill words to insult people, but He also was God! I can acknowledge the fact that Christians here are humans, not God and that they will sometimes find themselves heated up and may say things that can hurt. I'm guilty of it as well as anyone else. We all need to try not to do that. But please try to remember that we are only human beings, and to be exactly like Christ is so hard to do, we strive to be that way, but He is just so perfect, and we are not! We have just as much to learn in life as the next person. I think that there sometimes are people here that purposely disrupt the threads trying to cause these arguments and some just get caught up in the little remarks and it just gets to them too much, for those reasons there becomes a facade that the whole group of people (atheists or Christians, whomever) is that specific way and think that specific way. People make errors.....there's no sense in trying to attack, call names, judge, make those little tiny itsy bitsy remarks that they know will bring damage. It's just crazy on here, which is one of the main reasons I've not been coming on here so much anymore, too many personal attacks! Let's all try to stay calm here and respect that someone will definitely have a different opinion, point of view and belief on this forum. Just because we may disagree here or there or all the time, there should still be respect in the way we lay it out. I've learned that myself here. I think many others should try it, it's very liberating to just let go of the remarks that are born from anger and only to attack the other people on their beliefs. The ignore list really helps for some of them. I hope this helps and I want to try to know you all and get along, no matter what your religious beliefs are. Have a wonderful day JerZ, and everyone else!
LuLu
Great post Lulu! I couldn't give ya rep...you know the routine
I think everyone here has a very real investment in their respective belief system, be it Christianity or Atheism. It seems to me that human beings derive a great deal of comfort from their belief systems. (It codifies one's existence, as well as providing a framework for how to think and act.)
From a purely objective standpoint, BOTH atheists and Christians will filter everything they take in through their personal belief system, at the same time that both will filter out anything that doesn't fit that belief system. I'm not siding with either atheists or Christians at the moment, just reflecting upon the inherent nature of any given BELIEF SYSTEM.
Along with the inherently good aspects and nature of any belief system, they all too often seem to make people unable to communicate or listen to one another without an agenda. What people take in, how they process it, and what they discard seems to underscore every aspect of every religious/spiritual belief. I can therefore certainly understand why atheists would have just as much of an interest in visiting this forum as Christians do.
...Or anyone who has a belief system that they hold meaningful and dear to them.
You hit the nail on the head. I have noticed that too. The Christians on this board feel that if someone doesn't believe in Jesus, then they are automatically classified as "athiest" but that is just not the case. Just because someone doesn't believe in Jesus, doesnt mean that they don't believe in God...it just means that they don't believe in THEIR God but some other God(s), Goddessess, Buddah, Allah...whatever. It's the wrong view to have.
*Sigh*... yes, that's what I've been saying since I started posting here! But people still aren't getting it, which is why I feel really left-out sometimes - that's life as a Jew, though, so I'm fairly used to it by now. Just two posts above mine (by "June7th"), you'll see the same exact thing... "Christians or Atheists" over & over, and then one afterthought of "or whatever belief system YOU consider dear" (which is somewhat condescending, the way I read it - calling them belief systems rather than religions).
Yes, Christians are the dominant religion in this country, but they aren't the ONLY one. And that, my Christian friends, is why you're sometimes called egotistical. I do believe it's unintentional, unless you continue to ignore the rest of us, even after having this behavior pointed out. Sorry to ramble, but this has caused me a lot of grief on the forum!
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Just two posts above mine (by "June7th"), you'll see the same exact thing... "Christians or Atheists" over & over, and then one afterthought of "or whatever belief system YOU consider dear" (which is somewhat condescending, the way I read it - calling them belief systems rather than religions). 
