Financial struggles in retirement - people's own fault or not? (conversation, coverage)

[oldcoder]

We lack the fortitude to differentiate the truly unfortunate from those we know are unprepared. Many of the unprepared are being led to fully expect bailouts to keep them in houses and cars and lifestyles they can't afford.

I know people who are, very simply, lazy. They have all kinds of excuses for why they can't work, but need to spend money constantly anyway. But the real reason is, working is a pain. Sure there are good things about working, but overall it means having to drag yourself out of bed every day, tired or not, and do your job, no matter how you feel or what mood you are in. It takes more discipline than we realize, I think, if we have been working most of our lives.

It kind of irks me that our income tax will be used to bail them out.

I know someone who thinks I'm a stupid slave because I have a job. She has been living on home equity for the past 10 years. Yeah that's very smart.

There are people who can't work because of legitimate disabilities and I am glad to have my income tax help them. But it seems to me there is an awful lot of fraud and semi-fraud. There are people who claim bankruptcy because they tried to buy an American dream they could not afford. They get to start over owing nothing, and keeping their house.

And there are people on disability insurance who are able to work at least part time, but can't because their disability would be cut off. The system encourages dependency and helplessness.

[Wisteria]

Oldcoder: I know someone who thinks I'm a stupid slave because I have a job. She has been living on home equity for the past 10 years. Yeah that's very smart.

There are people who can't work because of legitimate disabilities and I am glad to have my income tax help them. But it seems to me there is an awful lot of fraud and semi-fraud. There are people who claim bankruptcy because they tried to buy an American dream they could not afford. They get to start over owing nothing, and keeping their house.

And there are people on disability insurance who are able to work at least part time, but can't because their disability would be cut off. The system encourages dependency and helplessness.

Oh you hit a nerve! I could probably burst a vein in my head (!), but I know way too many people like that!! Considering the circumstances I've had (and although it seems like I've revealed a lot, believe me there is LOTS more), I become livid with people collecting disability, especially for things that many people live with on a daily basis. Now, this is not directed toward people with real disabilities who have true injuries/illnesses/brain damage, or other serious problems. I can list off on two hands (10 fingers, because I'm including my thumbs! ), names (which I won't name here) of people who are scamming the system and proud of it!!

Oooooh, it makes me so angry! I have probably had similar circumstances (and probably still do have them in comparison to those who cheat the system), and it just makes me angry when I hear of people getting disability with for all kinds of disorders (especially things -- maybe I shouldn't list them so I don't offend people) but especially mental-supposed disorders that LOTS of people have! The only difference is, these people didn't WANT to work, and found a doctor who would sign to put them on disability and now they are happy as a lark! As I have said, I have not revealed a bulk of my life (I have had a very complex life), and I have seen people purposely take advantage of the system. I also used to work in Human Resources, and knowing how some people were literally lying and pretending to have things they didn't have, made me so mad.

There ARE morals involved here. I know someone who got disability for Post Traumatic Disorder -- for something exaggerated and made up. I cannot tell you how upsetting it is to see someone who actually has a lot of family money, getting those monthly checks, going to expensive concerts, buying organic foods, living in their own house, and the list goes on and on, while I, who would not have the lack of integrity to even think of doing something like that, nor do I feel entitled, has to scrimp and save and be careful of every single penny! Oh, I have seen it!!

The way the DSM IV is designed for "mental illnesses," frankly, anyone could fit into any one of those categories. We ALL have problems. It's just that some of us actually work while we HAVE those problems. It is called LIFE!

I almost lost my job once when I left a very impolite voicemail for someone who was supposed to be at home with a "serious" back injury -- but they weren't there. Come on, if you're going to fake it, at least be in bed!!

I DO know a few people who have legitimate problems (like my friend who was tossed from a horse and sustained brain damage and can no longer walk or think quite right -- although she is a very kind and involved individual and still volunteers and even gets part-time jobs), who do deserve it. But I would guess that about 50% of the people on disability have nothing more than many people who are working in spite of their problems.

With Workman's Comp I have seen some real doozies. Why in the world there are not more investigators, I don't know. But I know plenty of people who actually have worse disabilities than those I know who are on disability.

It's not just the system that enables people, it's the doctors, too. Oh, I have seen some real abuses because I used to have to take the clients to their appointments and sit in with them -- what a fraudulent system we have. And then I see people at work who can barely move, who hobble up steps to get to work each day, who have major medical problems, but they still come into work. These are people who have had cancer, back surgery, open heart surgery, full-fledged nervous breakdowns, and other numerous things. No, the ones I know here (except for my friend who got tossed off the horse) do NOT have (what I feel are) legitimate disabilities (especially the mental/emotional ones). When you have tragedy in your life and you keep plugging along, and just deal with it, and you know it's super hard to keep going, but you just feel that it's a moral issue, and then you see others with so little else happening, and they pursue the disability, it is outrageous.

Ironically, I am a social worker. I DO have empathy for those with legitimate claims. Unfortunately, many, many, many people do not deserve that disability. For every one who claims disability for a certain disorder, I'll bet that there are ten who are still working and not claiming disability -- because they have integrity and resolved to work through it. Just look around us -- there are plenty of people who have problems. Does that mean the entire population should get disability? It is an absurd notion to me.

I know someone who in her twenties was in an employment car "accident," (she was bumped from behind). Well, that was her ticket to disability. I actually dropped her as a friend because I could not believe that she would pursue this claim. She did, though. She pursued it for five years, and ended up with over half a million dollars .... AND FULL RETIREMENT for the rest of her life-- and she promptly blew the half million in a few years -- not even buying a house for stability. No, she took it like a lottery winning, and just spent, spent, spent. I have no respect for that. I knew she was not seriously injured -- but she ended up getting FULL retirement in her twenties for something that lots of people go through (whiplash), and don't sue the government for. I found it gross.

Now, for people with real disabilities, real problems that truly cannot be solved and absolutely prevents one from ever working again (say they went blind, or deaf, or very physically disabled -- but even deaf and blind people can be productive because I know some of them -- in fact, my Senior high school English teacher was BLIND! and he was a great teacher! -- he used braille cards to keep track of things -- and he knew what was happening in class, and you couldn't get away with anything), then okay. But I have seen so many fraudulent claims and abuses over the years, and outright lies, that I tend to avoid anyone whom I know could still be working, but are just lazy, and this was their ticket out.

So, now you know the other side of me. I have worked darned hard for decades, and although I was not financially well-versed, I have kept a job and worked very hard. My pension may not be a lot, but I'll still have one. I worked through an entire year of illness not long ago -- I did not take off. I could have taken off, and I suppose I could have gone on disability -- but I also knew I could eventually get through it. My morals will not allow me to do that. If I were absolutely, truly disabled, or maybe like a friend of mine who is schizophrenic and he does have problems discerning reality, then okay, disability payments would be viable. But I have seen cheat after cheat after cheat, and I know many people with many more serious problems who still trudge along in the work world but have integrity. It is to those people to whom I raise my hat! The hard-working, deserving people of the world who realize that life isn't always pleasant and hard knocks hit everyone.

And...although it's not disability, I know quite a number of women who take advantage of the men they are married to so that they don't have to enter the job market or take care of themselves. If find it also abhorrent to stay in a marriage with someone whom you hate, just because you don't want a full-time job. That is not fair to the person one hates, but certainly does not show character for the person taking advantage of their spouse.

There's my rant. Maybe my work ethic is old-fashioned, but I do believe that those who honestly deserve help should get it; for the frauds and whiners out there, I don't believe in it. I have known both. I applaud and help those who truly deserve it; I do not support those who are playing the system.

Wisteria has her other side! She's a hard worker, been through enough hard times to empathize easily, but also has high integrity. Don't mess with a Wisteria!! lol

[oldcoder]

We ALL have problems. It's just that some of us actually work while we HAVE those problems. It is called LIFE!

When you have tragedy in your life and you keep plugging along, and just deal with it, and you know it's super hard to keep going, but you just feel that it's a moral issue, and then you see others with so little else happening, and they pursue the disability, it is outrageous.

I worked through an entire year of illness not long ago -- I did not take off.

Maybe my work ethic is old-fashioned, but I do believe that those who honestly deserve help should get it; for the frauds and whiners out there, I don't believe in it. I have known both. I applaud and help those who truly deserve it; I do not support those who are playing the system.

Wisteria,

I agree with you one hundred percent! I have seen examples that make me crazed! Someone gets an ache or pain, or a little mental stress, and, with a good enough lawyer, they're disabled! But on the other hand, I know people who get themselves into the office somehow, in spite of serious severe illness and injuries. I was sick for six months and dragged myself in to work anyway.

I know someone who had fibromyalgia, supposedly, which got worse if she didn't exercise. And she was too lazy to exercise (she admitted that herself!), so a lawyer got her disability. I've had fibromyalgia for decades, so I exercise, and it got better! And I worked all those years even when the pain was horrible (and never took drugs for it, by the way).

So I guess I sometimes lack sympathy. Like most people, I have been through stress and hardship. I could have tried to find a psychiatrist to diagnose me with ADD or PTSD, or you name it.

If you really don't want to work you can find a way. Of course, you won't have any retirement savings, but what the heck, just let the taxpayers take care of you when you're old. Or take SS away from those suckers who worked and saved all their lives -- they don't really need it.

[ConeyIsBabe]

Originally Posted by oldcoder

Wisteria,

I agree with you one hundred percent! I have seen examples that make me crazed! Someone gets an ache or pain, or a little mental stress, and, with a good enough lawyer, they're disabled! But on the other hand, I know people who get themselves into the office somehow, in spite of serious severe illness and injuries. I was sick for six months and dragged myself in to work anyway.

I know someone who had fibromyalgia, supposedly, which got worse if she didn't exercise. And she was too lazy to exercise (she admitted that herself!), so a lawyer got her disability. I've had fibromyalgia for decades, so I exercise, and it got better! And I worked all those years even when the pain was horrible (and never took drugs for it, by the way).

So I guess I sometimes lack sympathy. Like most people, I have been through stress and hardship. I could have tried to find a psychiatrist to diagnose me with ADD or PTSD, or you name it.

If you really don't want to work you can find a way. Of course, you won't have any retirement savings, but what the heck, just let the taxpayers take care of you when you're old. Or take SS away from those suckers who worked and saved all their lives -- they don't really need it.

What continues to irk me is that ~ Some people are either in denial or absolutely refuse to take responsibility for their own actions/choices in life !

[oldcoder]

What continues to irk me is that ~ Some people are either in denial or absolutely refuse to take responsibility for their own actions/choices in life !

I think we're all in denial about something to some extent. But what irks me is that it's always the middle class working tax payers who get the bill. If a giant corporation screws up, we bail them out. If someone doesn't like the idea of going to work everyday and having a boss, we make their disability payments.

[Wisteria]

I'm glad there are those who agree with me -- I thought I might get slammed for my opinions! Thanks for the support.
(I couldn't rep either one of you!)

[Escort Rider]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

I consider myself to be well-off, yes. But I sure didn't start life that way, and I sacrificed a lot to get to where I am. Sure, some luck was involved. But saving 25-75% of my takehome pay over the course of decades while living in houses much smaller than my peers, fixing the 15-year old refrigerator instead of buying a new one, keeping cars for 10+ years, taking local camping vacations instead of trips to Hawaii, etc...THAT is not luck, and those savings grow and compound over the course of time.

And yes, I believe that very many of those reaching retirement age unprepared are largely responsible for their own predicaments. The effects of a lifetime of bad decisions do accumulate, even if the sense of responsibility for those decisions apparently does not.

From your posts I get the idea that you think that people overextending themselves on the trappings of a lifestyle they can't afford is relatively rare--limited to BMW-driving "McMansion" dwellers. My experience is that it is pervasive and widespread in the US, and has been for some time. I can point to lots of quantitative data that supports my viewpoint, but it is solidified by what I see around town every day. Things like people driving a late model car and using food stamps, a family on WIC moving from an apartment to a house, neighbors getting out of their brand new car still sporting a dealer's sticker in front of a house sporting a "Short Sale" sign, people who I know who just went through bankruptcy maintaining memberships at my pricey health club, etc. It's the parents of kids who show up for the first day of school with no school supplies but who go home to play any one of a dozen $50 games on their Play Station III. It's peers I know that have been making well above-average salaries for decades who are not only unprepared for retirement in 10-15 years, but are really just one missed paycheck away from defaulting on a mountain of personal debt. I see it everywhere, and it's anything but rare.

I have a relative who has had sports cars, boats, motorcycles, and literally thousands of nights with his friends in the local pubs during his life, who paid child support to a couple women he never married. If you ask him why he has no retirement savings after over 20 years in the workplace, and why he can't seem to get ahead today, the idea that he bears ANY responsibility for his own predicament is as foreign as the idea of building a muslim victory temple a block from ground zero in New York.

How about the high school football star that basked in the fruits of good looks and popularity while he should have been studying, who dropped out of college after a year, and ended up with three ex-wives while working an endless series of jobs as a bartender, construction worker, and handyman? If you ask him (I have) the chips are stacked against him. There's no memory left of all the wasted opportunities along the way.

We lack the fortitude to differentiate the truly unfortunate from those we know are unprepared. Many of the unprepared are being led to fully expect bailouts to keep them in houses and cars and lifestyles they can't afford. How we manage realigning those expectations will determine whether we have years of quiet suffering or mass insurrection ahead of us.

This wonderful post says it all. The concrete examples bring home the point. And you do say this applies to "very many" who are unprepared, not to all. That last caveat is important.

[Gandalara]

Originally Posted by oldcoder

So I guess I sometimes lack sympathy.

Originally Posted by ConeyIsBabe

Some people are either in denial or absolutely refuse to take responsibility for their own actions/choices in life !

Originally Posted by Wisteria

I thought I might get slammed for my opinions!

I've been called an unsympathetic blankety-blank for my views. Oh well

To answer the original question - "Financial struggles in retirement - people's own fault or not?" ... in my unverifiable, uncorroborated opinion (IOW, gut feelings) nine out of ten times it's their own darn fault.

[SCBaker]

Originally Posted by Wisteria

I'm glad there are those who agree with me -- I thought I might get slammed for my opinions! Thanks for the support.
(I couldn't rep either one of you!)

Wisteria, I found your original post quite refreshing. Thank's for being honest. I tried to rep you, but they wouldn't let me.

I personally am sick and tired of the "Robin Hood" mentality that is so out of control in this country. I was taught both at home & school that you always had to pay the consequences for your own actions/inactions. I am thankful for that upbringing. It has served me well.

[oldcoder]

I personally am sick and tired of the "Robin Hood" mentality that is so out of control in this country.

I think everyone is glad to contribute to those who are genuinely disabled. We know that their families might not be able to take care of them, or they might not have families. But it's hard to know who really needs help and who is taking advantage. Our government agencies don't seem to be able to tell the difference. I realize it's difficult and complicated. Maybe there are people who are prevented from working because of ADD and PTSD and chronic fatigue, etc.. But when I see people coming in to work right after cancer surgery, then I have to wonder why the person with ADD has to stay in bed all day.