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The city has traditionally and disproportionately focused on the North side so it is understandable that some within NEISD boundaries would want that to continue perpetually even to the detriment of the rest of the city. Now that all sides of town are getting attention in different ways it seems that only now some want to cry foul while others praise the progress.
Since it seems that you have been here in San Antonio awhile, could you provide some perspective on how the city has traditionally and disproportionately focused on the North Side? I am not aware of any longitude analysis done by the city comparing both the revenues flowing to city hall and expenses paid by city hall for the North side as compared to each of the other parts of the city.
Without such a proper analysis, we are all just relying on our gut feelings and biases. I think a true analysis of this type could put this issue to bed once and for all.
The city has traditionally and disproportionately focused on the North side
Quote:
Originally Posted by datacity
Since it seems that you have been here in San Antonio awhile, could you provide some perspective on how the city has traditionally and disproportionately focused on the North Side? I am not aware of any longitude analysis done by the city comparing both the revenues flowing to city hall and expenses paid by city hall for the North side as compared to each of the other parts of the city.
Without such a proper analysis, we are all just relying on our gut feelings and biases. I think a true analysis of this type could put this issue to bed once and for all.
I agree that I'd like to see some evidence that CoSA spending disproportionately goes to the north side. I've observed many instances where money, particularly for things like infrastructure, was distributed in a painstakingly even fashion across all 10 council districts. Bond issue projects tend to go that way, too. This distribution of PreK4SA resources is a notable exception in that regard.
Since it seems that you have been here in San Antonio awhile, could you provide some perspective on how the city has traditionally and disproportionately focused on the North Side? I am not aware of any longitude analysis done by the city comparing both the revenues flowing to city hall and expenses paid by city hall for the North side as compared to each of the other parts of the city.
Without such a proper analysis, we are all just relying on our gut feelings and biases. I think a true analysis of this type could put this issue to bed once and for all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo
I agree that I'd like to see some evidence that CoSA spending disproportionately goes to the north side. I've observed many instances where money, particularly for things like infrastructure, was distributed in a painstakingly even fashion across all 10 council districts. Bond issue projects tend to go that way, too. This distribution of PreK4SA resources is a notable exception in that regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee
NEISD is rather insular in these matters so will naturally maintain their distance and skepticism to large degrees. While we could use their help as a partner in progress it is no surprise if they continue to choose to ignore the rest of the city.
This could easily benefit NEISD children but their administrators seem opposed. You guys could always schedule in another school bond proposition if you are really interested in raising more funds?
The city has traditionally and disproportionately focused on the North side so it is understandable that some within NEISD boundaries would want that to continue perpetually even to the detriment of the rest of the city. Now that all sides of town are getting attention in different ways it seems that only now some want to cry foul while others praise the progress.
After comparing all the underlined parts above I don't think what you two have stated is exactly what I stated . When I mentioned the "city" it was more than just CoSa since CoSA is not the only governmental entity and CoSA is neither a resident or business association but do not limit my description to just these either.
There are also no longitudinal studies that I know of that were commissioned by city hall that explores that exactly datacity.
It also does not really matter if you are going to be convinced since some might have other reasons to not want to understand the traditional disparities in town besides a lack of the specific academic proof you have requested.
What there is, is a shared local narrative that San Antonio has indeed neglected other sides of town but let me focus on my side of town.
The sociologist Mark Warren, now an Associate Professor at McCormack Graduate School's Department of Public Policy and Public Affairs, contributed an essay entitled, "A Theology of Organizing: From Alinsky to the Modern IAF," to The Community Development Reader (chapter 23) while an Associate Professor of Education at Harvard.
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The protestors were all members of Catholic parishes active in Communities Organized for Public Service (COPS), a new organization fighting to improve conditions in San Antonio's impoverished and long neglected south and west side neighborhoods.
Architects + Artisans published this on a piece about local firm Muñoz & Company:
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For too many years, he says, the Latino population on the South Side of San Antonio has been neglected. Now there’s an intergenerational learning center, with books, classes and computer seminars.
San Antonio’s far South Side historically has been ignored and neglected. Its abundant farmland and natural habitats are relatively untouched, while the North Side continues to boom, gaining population and development.
San Antonio’s historically neglected Southside is about to get a facelift with its first four-year university and an accompanying portion of nearby mixed-use development.
Scott Smith, King William resident, former Director of Environmental Planning and Compliance at CPS, board member of the Downtown Alliance and the San Antonio Community Development Corporation for River North, advisory member of the San Antonio River Foundation Arts and Architecture Committee, and current Power of Preservation Foundation member stated this:
Quote:
"What a great catalyst it would be for growth on the South side," says Smith. "Which has really been neglected in that way for so many years, to see that happen here at this structure."
San Antonio’s South Side, ignored for decades as development in the region continued to spread further north and west, is staking its claim to the high-tech high ground.
The area suffered from a long period of infrastructural neglect dating back to the 1950s, when City Council members were chosen at large rather than by geographical district.
This is also from the San Antonio Business Journal, take note of the mention of two other groups (underlined for your convenience) that are not CoSA which have input.
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San Antonio’s South Side, overlooked for decades by developers, has experienced incredible economic growth over the last few years, attracting new housing, businesses and a major university.
...
Bexar County Commissioner Tommy Adkisson, who has worked for years to sell the merits of the South Side, says Taylor will leave behind some big shoes to fill.
Former Mayor Hardberger states this (another entity that is not CoSA underlined below):
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"Still, "the south side is really coming into its own right now," Mayor Phil Hardberger said."
The south side has traditionally not grown like the north side has, and frankly has not always been treated by the city and by business as well as it should have," he said.
Even the historical structures in the South side have been neglected (more entities that are not CoSA are underlined):
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Years of neglect and urban development threatened to swallow Acequia San Juan, though it continued to provide water to local farmers' fields near the old mission until 1972, when flooding washed out a diversion dam on the river.
...
"Without the help of the city, Los Compadres, the Conservation Society and the river authority's engineer, Dean Bayer, we wouldn't be this close to making it a reality."
Finally Bexar County Commissioner Sergio "Chico" Rodriguez stated the following:
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The Southside is the jewel of Bexar County, but for too long it was neglected. When I came into office I vowed to change that by making sure that I speak out to not only make sure the Southside gets its fair share, but also to tell its great story and all that it has to offer.
So, no, it is not imperative that you two accept this view or even understand it, but that does not change what is, has been, or that we are finally moving forward.
It is the business community that has determined where development occurs and what kind of development. So what you really want is to tell the business community where to develop and operate?
My view is that most high-profile efforts at social engineering, throwing government resources at an area to force improvement upon the people living in it, by local government in Bexar County have failed. PreK4SA is another attempt at social engineering. Hence my deep cynicism about the future of the project.
When I mentioned the "city" it was more than just CoSa since CoSA is not the only governmental entity and CoSA is neither a resident or business association but do not limit my description to just these either.
Fair enough if you meant that the south side has been historically neglected not necessarily just by governmental agencies, but by private developers and other stakeholders. However, the way you wrote the paragraph in question,it could be inferred that there is a bias against NEISD and all of its stakeholders and residents. I do not think there is widespread contempt against having any money spent on the south side, and I certainly do not believe anyone would try to convince private development money to stay away from the south side. This started out related to a Pre-K program funded by sales tax. I certainly think it would be interesting to see how the sales tax collection is distributed geographically across the city and how it is spent, don't you?
So the following basically repeats the narrative we all know, that primarily private development went north, and the south was neglected. To me, this is separate from the Pre-K proposal recently passed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee
The sociologist Mark Warren, now an Associate Professor at McCormack Graduate School's Department of Public Policy and Public Affairs, contributed an essay entitled, "A Theology of Organizing: From Alinsky to the Modern IAF," to The Community Development Reader (chapter 23) while an Associate Professor of Education at Harvard.
I have not read so cannot comment on this study, although from what you shared, I would assume (maybe incorrectly) that the protests illustrated were to demand attention from governmental agencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee
Architects + Artisans published this on a piece about local firm Muñoz & Company:
My reading of the tone of this article, and the publication in which it appears, is primarily that buildings on the south side have often neglected to reflect the architectural taste and the historical art associated with the residents of the area. In that respect, I agree that it is good for both public and private buildings to be consistent with what residents of an area want to see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee
Our Express-News in United Commercial Realty - Knowing the difference makes all the difference.
The Current published the following:
I see a paper making a comment on how the city has developed since the 1980s. Different people will see what they want as to why private developers went north, and not south. My guess is that private investment occurs when private money believes it will get a return as quickly as possible. They can be incorrect (e.g. Eilan, so far), but they tend to look for "easier" projects. It probably helped that USAA, the Medical Center and UTSA were all on the north side.
Having said that, enlightened private developers can and are flocking to the south side, more so recently. I can appreciate that government can and has played a role in enticing private development (e.g. Toyota) and in serving as a catalyst (e.g. Texas A&M). If anything, this proves that "neglect" was partly a lack of leadership in getting key anchor development going. The Current was just reporting on the progress of such an anchor development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee
Scott Smith, King William resident, former Director of Environmental Planning and Compliance at CPS, board member of the Downtown Alliance and the San Antonio Community Development Corporation for River North, advisory member of the San Antonio River Foundation Arts and Architecture Committee, and current Power of Preservation Foundation member stated this:
Great that things are happening and that it is hip to be a part of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee
1) San Antonio Business Journal has this:
2) This is also from the San Antonio Business Journal, take note of the mention of two other groups (underlined for your convenience) that are not CoSA which have input.
3) Former Mayor Hardberger states this (another entity that is not CoSA underlined below):
4) Even the historical structures in the South side have been neglected (more entities that are not CoSA are underlined):
5) Finally Bexar County Commissioner Sergio "Chico" Rodriguez stated the following:
More of the same. Again, it is great that our leaders have been able to get anchor development going and which now is getting much more private development going. Nothing wrong with this and it's good to see it happening. I will agree that due to how council used to be elected decades long ago, there was less infrastructure development in the past on the south side. However, with major development now coming online, some of this can be now mitigated. The Mission Reach of the San Antonio River Extension is one nice example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee
So, no, it is not imperative that you two accept this view or even understand it, but that does not change what is, has been, or that we are finally moving forward.
You can choose to believe or not believe whether you think I understand or accept your view. Here is what I will say in parting:
My family once had a business on the south side. An aunt and uncle of mine, some cousins, nephews and nieces, and some friends have lived on the south side and have had businesses there for 30 years. I also have a small business off I-35 S, outside of the city and the loops on the southwest side. I have some land on the east side (20 years), which I hope to someday build into another business. I also have friends who live on the west side and yes, I am currently living on the north side, but have lived in the past on Fredericksburg just northwest of downtown.
So I am not opposed to development or expenditures across this city, by private folks, companies, or even governmental bodies like the city. My less than enthusiastic support of a Pre-K program does not mean that I think everything else happening on the south side is bad. It is wonderful "progress."
My disagreement with the process of the Pre-K initiative is a separate issue. I actually think that the NEISD board is correct to be concerned about an initiative that could affect the district's own Pre-K program if they were to join the city plan. There are questions of funding, transportation, liability, parent involvement and other things that were not properly considered, negotiated between the school districts and the city, or even presented to residents before asking voters to approve this tax. I am not still even sure how success will be measured in just the few short years for which this tax has currently been approved. IMHO, that is a prime example of how not to launch a major initiative, particularly one that is so important.
It is the business community that has determined where development occurs and what kind of development. So what you really want is to tell the business community where to develop and operate?
My view is that most high-profile efforts at social engineering, throwing government resources at an area to force improvement upon the people living in it, by local government in Bexar County have failed. PreK4SA is another attempt at social engineering. Hence my deep cynicism about the future of the project.
datacity asked if I could provide some perspective so I offered ten different perspectives regarding the point that the city has traditionally neglected other sides of town besides the North side.
Through those perspectives we can see how the city operated before and how it is changing course now to the degree that the business community themselves understand if we continue to neglect certain sides of town that our city will suffer as a whole when it comes to being competitive. That is why the leaders of our local business community wholly endorsed Pre-K 4 SA.
My view on social engineering is that it will occur regardless if we leave it to the old guard of the business community as before where they just looked after their own interests to the detriment of the city as a whole -or- if we have the business community working together with our city government and citizens to see what is best for all of us in the spirit of progress.
It would seem that the only thing that has failed is the old way of doing things which is why we are doing them different now.
Sorry, but I did not understand your inference regarding anyone "really wanting" to tell the business community how to operate. They have always decided themselves even now as they change course.
You can choose to believe or not believe whether you think I understand or accept your view. Here is what I will say in parting:
My family once had a business on the south side. An aunt and uncle of mine, some cousins, nephews and nieces, and some friends have lived on the south side and have had businesses there for 30 years. I also have a small business off I-35 S, outside of the city and the loops on the southwest side. I have some land on the east side (20 years), which I hope to someday build into another business. I also have friends who live on the west side and yes, I am currently living on the north side, but have lived in the past on Fredericksburg just northwest of downtown.
So I am not opposed to development or expenditures across this city, by private folks, companies, or even governmental bodies like the city. My less than enthusiastic support of a Pre-K program does not mean that I think everything else happening on the south side is bad. It is wonderful "progress."
My disagreement with the process of the Pre-K initiative is a separate issue. I actually think that the NEISD board is correct to be concerned about an initiative that could affect the district's own Pre-K program if they were to join the city plan. There are questions of funding, transportation, liability, parent involvement and other things that were not properly considered, negotiated between the school districts and the city, or even presented to residents before asking voters to approve this tax. I am not still even sure how success will be measured in just the few short years for which this tax has currently been approved. IMHO, that is a prime example of how not to launch a major initiative, particularly one that is so important.
Cheers!
You have wonderfully informed comments and thank you for actually taking the time to read my post and the provided links. Agreed that some are more specific to a certain project than the South side as a whole but through them we can develop a larger overview.
When it comes to Pre-K 4 SA I am glad we can at least agree that it is a major initiative tackling an issue that is very important. I happen to think we are doing it right and that the voters had enough information to vote accordingly.
Sorry, but I did not understand your inference regarding anyone "really wanting" to tell the business community how to operate. They have always decided themselves even now as they change course.
The examples you posted seemed to me to be more about where private development has occurred, so I assumed that's what you were claiming had long been neglected in the less-developed parts of the city. I remain unconvinced that sending 3 and 4 year olds to preschool is going to cause more bookstores, more Target stores and more residential developments with $500K+ homes to be built in the parts of SA which notably lack them. I do think some residents, and possibly even the mayor, see the program as a foundation that will eventually (or inevitably) lead the city in that direction. It sounds like you're not seeing it as quite that much of a panacea.
I think the larger issue here is that many businesses avoid certain parts of the city simply because of the crime and vandalism. Watch the news, or just talk to folks. People on what is called the "good" or "rich" areas will call cops, report problems, and give witness statements, etc. The "bad" or "poor" sides of town? A shooting in broad daylight in the midst of a crowd of people often is met with "I didn't see anything", "I don't want to get involved", etc.
Several years back, I was responsible for selecting a new facility site for an employer. Initially drawn to the south side, I noticed all the tagging, the folks sitting/standing about during the working day, etc. Doing some checking, the crime stats were staggering - as were the overall run-down appearance of the area. Folks, I'm sorry - I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, and growing up my folks often had to make hard choices based on finances. But our yard and house was ALWAYS kept in as good repair as possible, and at very least was clean and neat. I don't have to make $100k/year to pick up trash and junk from my yard.
Bottom line - why would I want to build a $1mil+ facility and park 10-15 company vehicles in an area where vandalism/theft would be a constant issue? Normal crime is bad enough - but when it's rampant and no one wants to tell what they saw, I do not want to be there, either.
I know I'm gonna get blasted by many here, but I am SO tired of the "poor, neglected side of town" refusing to take ownership of the role THEY play in it.
I think the larger issue here is that many businesses avoid certain parts of the city simply because of the crime and vandalism. Watch the news, or just talk to folks. People on what is called the "good" or "rich" areas will call cops, report problems, and give witness statements, etc. The "bad" or "poor" sides of town? A shooting in broad daylight in the midst of a crowd of people often is met with "I didn't see anything", "I don't want to get involved", etc.
Several years back, I was responsible for selecting a new facility site for an employer. Initially drawn to the south side, I noticed all the tagging, the folks sitting/standing about during the working day, etc. Doing some checking, the crime stats were staggering - as were the overall run-down appearance of the area. Folks, I'm sorry - I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, and growing up my folks often had to make hard choices based on finances. But our yard and house was ALWAYS kept in as good repair as possible, and at very least was clean and neat. I don't have to make $100k/year to pick up trash and junk from my yard.
Bottom line - why would I want to build a $1mil+ facility and park 10-15 company vehicles in an area where vandalism/theft would be a constant issue? Normal crime is bad enough - but when it's rampant and no one wants to tell what they saw, I do not want to be there, either.
I know I'm gonna get blasted by many here, but I am SO tired of the "poor, neglected side of town" refusing to take ownership of the role THEY play in it.
I would say that any desire for national office has just been dashed.
Last edited by WilGar; 02-10-2013 at 12:53 PM..
Reason: wrong verb usage
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