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I have lived in Seattle for 20 years and leave next week for Berkeley, where my husband and I are relocating with our two young boys. I know it isn't SoCal, but your chance of seeing sunshine in the Bay Area is at least 90% better on any given day than it is in Seattle. And if you really need warmer weather on the weekend or whatever, you can drive for a couple hours and find it.
With Bay Area microclimates, summer can very greatly. Just go 10 miles in either direction.
For example:
Sunset district in SF: 60s and Foggy
Mission District in SF: Sunny upper 60s
Oakland: Sunny and mid 70s
San Mateo: Sunny and 70s (somewhat similar to Oakland, but I find it to be chillier/windier)
Palo Alto: Sunny and upper 70s/lower 80s
Berkeley: Sunny and 70 (5 degrees cooler than Oakland)
Walnut Creek: Sunny and 80-85
Concord: Sunny and 85+
San Jose: Sunny and 80-90 (90 in the southern parts)
Winter is very similar for the entire Bay Area. Some places get a bit more rain than others. But the temperatures are similar for the day time highs. The closer you are to the Bay, the warmer the night time temps are in the winter.
Thanks for the insight snarkadoodle. We have some friends that live in Seattle and they actually really like the weather there (and they also came from the Midwest). So, we've been confused about what it's really like there year-round. Visiting just isn't the same as living there. Sunshine truly is rare during the Twin Cities Winters but, I suppose, even having a day or two here and there with some sun rays is something to be grateful for. Our energy levels and moods really do suffer when it's grey and gloomy all the time. Thus, we've leaned towards SF and the Bay area. We just never thought it was affordable for the "average" person (i.e. middle-class). So, I really do appreciate you sharing your personal experience. Weather could be a deciding factor for us. Good luck and have fun in Berkeley!
Thanks for your honest input. Maybe I should say we make a "good" versus "decent" living. We're certainly not pulling in seven figures, but are comfortable. We've been to SF many times and have been stuck feeling like you need to be a millionaire to afford a nice two bedroom place in a good neighborhood. We hoped that feeling was an exaggeration. We thought that the still down housing market might actually benefit us, even in SF. That said, we planned to initially rent until we're more familiar with the place .. pets and all. That doesn't sound easy in SF though; much more realistic in Seattle. We also thought of Denver, as we have some family there, but it's obviously lacking the much-loved ocean and the way of life doesn't seem dramatically different from the Twin Cities. We're looking for progressive and liberal. We aren't huge "going out" - as in bars, clubs - people, and prefer to either do cultural and outdoor things or have at-home get togethers. So, good housing options are very important. Again, thanks for your advice.
The thing is, the housing "crisis" didn't really affect SF that badly. Yes, prices did come down for buying for a bit, but they were so high to begin with that they still never came down to what most would consider "reasonable levels." As well, housing prices for buying and rental prices have gone up significantly recently (last 1 year - 2 years). As recently as early 2010, prices on the rental side of things were not too bad (i.e. you could find a decent 1BR for ~$1500 in very nice areas); but they have since gone way up since then (that equivalent 1BR is probably closer to $2500-$3000). Just see this thread for discussion on the issue: //www.city-data.com/forum/san-f...et-insane.html
I personally really like Seattle and in some ways prefer it to SF. They're two of my favorite cities, though.
Some positives for Seattle:
- Cheaper living
- Summers are usually very nice (their hidden secret...everyone thinks it's cloudy/rainy all year long, but that is not true at all, and those in the PNW like their hidden secret)
- Not as crowded/big feeling (outside of Seattle's downtown)
- Improving transit that they're in the process of expanding greatly (light rail from airport to downtown complete, working on expansions to University of Washington and the east suburbs (Bellevue and Redmond)
downsides:
- Weather in winter (they're known for their rain, but it's really the clouds, not the rain, that gets most people down)
- Economy not as strong as the Bay Area's right now, particularly in certain sectors
- Might lack the quantity of cultural offerings that you'd find in SF and the surrounding area
Some positives for SF:
- Better weather (on the eastern side of the city, especially), and when the weather is foggy at the coast, it's easy to get to warm and sunny weather (usually just drive a few miles inland)
- Bigger city, so more cultural offerings and more big city amenities
- Strong economy, particularly in certain sectors
- The Bay Area is full of microclimates, which are especially important in the summer, when the coast can be 55 degrees and foggy, but 20 miles inland can be 85-90 degrees...this lets most anyone find their ideal climate, so long as they're willing to look outside of SF city limts
downsides:
- Expensive (duh)
- Bigger, so also, more crowded
- Fog can be a bummer sometimes (although, if you have a car, it is very easy to escape)
- Homeless problem in some areas of the city
- Transit can be slow
I think they're both about equal in these areas:
- Scenery in the city (beautiful views in both cities)
- Amazing access to wilderness and outdoors activities (hard to give an edge to either, although Seattle has easier access to more national parks)
- Interesting history in both
- Both growing metros that have very bright futures
- Quality of life generally considered very high in both
- Educated populations
- Coming from the Twin Cities, either winter will seem tame
I would say, if possible, to try to spend time in both areas for at least a week at a time at various times of the year. It's one thing to go to Seattle in the middle of summer and fall in love with it, but you should definitely go there in the middle of winter to also get a feel for what the city is like then, too. Ultimately, you'll want to weight the positives and negatives of both, and go with what feels the most "right" for you. I know it'd be a hard choice for me, though.
I would say, if possible, to try to spend time in both areas for at least a week at a time at various times of the year. It's one thing to go to Seattle in the middle of summer and fall in love with it, but you should definitely go there in the middle of winter to also get a feel for what the city is like then, too. Ultimately, you'll want to weight the positives and negatives of both, and go with what feels the most "right" for you. I know it'd be a hard choice for me, though.
I agree. And by the way, the "middle of summer" out here is late August. June is absolutely awful.
There is a lot to love about both places, but I think you have to know yourselves well and prioritize. I don't think there is a city in this country as breathtakingly beautiful as Seattle...when it's sunny. It sounds like weather is a big deal to you, so I would probably nudge you toward the Bay Area. And while the Bay Area is expensive, the economy is definitely more robust. This is another reason we're moving - Seattle depends way too much on Microsoft and Amazon doing well, and this makes us nervous.
Again, best of luck. Once you make your choice, you will find lots of reasons to be happy with where you land!
As one who has homes in both places, I can say you'll likely be happy in either. The other posters, particularly HockeyMac18, did a fine job of summing up the pros and cons.
A couple of items I didn't see mentioned. One is that Washington has no income tax and the resultant heavy reliance on the sales tax favors folks with higher incomes. Another is the property tax situation. In CA there is Prop 13, which limits how much the assessed valuation of property can rise from year to year. This was passed by the voters in the 70s. The practical effect is that owners of properties that have been held for a long time pay far lower taxes than someone who just moved in, even though the two properties may be virtually identical. If it will bother you that your long-established neighbor may well be paying significantly less in property tax than you will, then stay away from CA.
While the Seattle area may indeed be overly dependent on Boeing, Amazon, Microsoft and so on, its economy is diversifying. In particular, health care and health research are doing quite well at the moment. The question is whether that sector will grow enough so it can stand alone or whether it will merely create opportunities for out-of-town companies to come in and pick off the best bits. The record on that is mixed so far. Some biotech has been scooped up but other areas such as the Seattle Cancer Care Alliance aren't going anywhere. The overall unemployment rate is also lower in the Seattle metro (6.9 v. 8.1).
One last thing. As a Seattle native it pains me to say this, but I find that the people in the Bay Area are generally more friendly. Seattle is certainly civil and polite, but there's a good reason that the "Seattle Freeze" gets an entry in the Urban Dictionary.
Good luck and I hope you're happy no matter where you land.
When I refer to "way of life", I mean more diverse as well as progressive and liberal. A couple examples: My husband and I don't have kids and are, honestly, the only household in our neighborhood at large that isn't "traditional" (whatever that means). I've lived in the Twin Cities nearly my entire life and do know that this certainly doesn't typify the entire metropolitan area, but it is noticeable in ours specifically and we really hate being the exception. Also, we're huge environmentalists and vegans (being PETA members). Finding people/places that share our same values is a challenge. Around here, you're more likely to find PETA standing for "People Eating Tasty Animals" rather than it's true "People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals". A decent vegan-friendly restaurant is scarce. We also like to volunteer at animal sanctuaries/shelters. There aren't too many of those here. We're pretty much hippies and embrace all types of people and lifestyles. So, for us, different is good.
As far as weather: Last Winter, we went over well over two weeks without seeing the sun once. It would pop out for a day and then back to grey, glooming skies for another long stretch of days to weeks. And, of course, anyone who's lived here knows how brutally cold it can be with loads of ice and snow. In the Summer, it is crazy humid. I'm kind've surprised anyone has experienced different. Already this year, we've had constant humidity levels of 80% to near 100%. It's gross. Irregardless, we're looking to make a geographic change to SF or Seattle and I'm appreciative for the input on those two locales.
I know this is about SF or Seattle so I'm not trying to make this about the Twin Cities, but do just want to use Minneapolis (never had experience living in St. Paul or the suburbs, but your MN experiences were clearly very different than mine) as a reference point. I've an environmentalist and a vegetarian, and knew a lot of vegans in Minneapolis -- more than I've met in San Francisco, actually. I think in EVERY metro area (including San Francisco/Bay Area) you're going to find a lot of different types of neighborhoods. When it comes time to pick a neighborhood in SF (if you move here) just pick a neighborhood that fits, that's all, and don't assume that any old SF neighborhood will give you what you're looking for. I don't know where you're living, but I didn't find San Francisco to feel any more liberal or progressive or any more vegetarian-friendly than Minneapolis, that's all, so don't set yourself up expecting perfection. Perhaps that doesn't describe you at all, but I came to San Francisco expecting it to be far more liberal (and have better public transportation, but that's another topic...) than it is. (not that it's NOT liberal, just that it didn't feel much different than Minneapolis, which is also an ultra-liberal hot spot.) It IS more diverse than Minneapolis, although that's also going to depend on neighborhood. I guess my goal is not to question your characterizations of the Twin Cities, just trying to get a sense of what it was that you did and did not want.
SF doesn't have the humidity, but I just wanted you to realize that you could well encounter far more grey weather than you do in MN, that's all. I had a tough time with that. Our apartment was often cold and damp, and while I loved some aspects (watching the fog roll down the street, not dealing with . Microclimates are definitely something you will want to consider if you move to this area. Assuming you're okay with high rents and high housing prices (and therefore choose the Bay Area over Seattle) you sound like you'd be a better fit for (parts of) the East Bay than you do for city of SF, especially since you dislike grey, gloomy weather. I always thought Minneapolis was fairly sunny, so if that's not sunny enough for you you will be absolutely miserable in many neighborhoods in San Francisco. We now live in the East Bay, and it's such a treat to be able to see the sun! Make sure to check out fog lines and microclimates before you sign a lease, or especially before you buy a place. I know I'm pounding this point into the ground, but there's a reason San Francisco is famous for its fog. If seeking sun is a priority you will want to learn all about those microclimates and plan accordingly.
We briefly had a chance to consider a relocation to Seattle and never got past the casual investigation stage. The weather scared me off, in part because I'd had so much trouble with dealing with the greyness of San Francisco. I'd assume that Seattle is much cheaper, though.
A decent vegan-friendly restaurant is scarce. We also like to volunteer at animal sanctuaries/shelters. There aren't too many of those here. We're pretty much hippies and embrace all types of people and lifestyles. So, for us, different is good.
Minneapolis is one of my five top choices of cities to move to. From your description it sounds like you live in Woodbury, Plymouth or White Bear Lake instead of Uptown or the University area.
It seems like there are more vegan health food options in Minneapolis/St. Paul than in San Francisco. In Minneapolis/St. Paul they have the Mississippi Market Co-op, Seward Co-op,Linden Hills Co-op,Hampden Park Co-op & probably some I don't know about. In SF there are 1.5 health food type co-ops. Rainbow Grocery(under the freeway) and Other Aves.(this counts only as .5 since it is small). The organic market is dominated by high priced gourmet type markets like Bi-Rite and hole Foods.
Restaurants in SF may have some vegetarian items on the menu but pure vegetarian restaurants are rare here. I can only think of Ananda,one lousy one near 18th & Mission, and a couple high end gourmet ones. The best vegetarian health food restaurant I have been to in Norcal was Sunflower Natural Food Restaurant(Sacramento area). There are also some excellent all vegetarian Indian restaurants in Sunnyvale and Fremont.
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies!!! There are so many things to love about both cities, but I think that the cons/drawbacks will, likely, be decision-drivers. We both work in healthcare, but my husband is transitioning from direct patient care to Biotech/Medical Informatics. A robust job market in that area, combined with housing options and weather (I would love to donate my Happy Lite - an artificial sunlight "box"), are our biggest factors. I truly do appreciate you all taking the time to share your experiences. Blessings!!!
I think if you can handle the weather (or make enough money to you can just leave when you want), then Seattle. I love the Bay Area, but I am concerned about the housing market. It's just nuts. I was out to dinner with someone who does very well. She's looking to buy and I don't envy her at all right now because the real estate market here is nuts between what you get for what you pay.
I'm sticking it out because I've moved enough and just want to settle here. That's not rational though.
With Bay Area microclimates, summer can very greatly. Just go 10 miles in either direction.
For example:
Sunset district in SF: 60s and Foggy
Mission District in SF: Sunny upper 60s
Oakland: Sunny and mid 70s
San Mateo: Sunny and 70s (somewhat similar to Oakland, but I find it to be chillier/windier) Palo Alto: Sunny and upper 70s/lower 80s
Berkeley: Sunny and 70 (5 degrees cooler than Oakland) Walnut Creek: Sunny and 80-85 Concord: Sunny and 85+ San Jose: Sunny and 80-90 (90 in the southern parts)
Winter is very similar for the entire Bay Area. Some places get a bit more rain than others. But the temperatures are similar for the day time highs. The closer you are to the Bay, the warmer the night time temps are in the winter.
This is really the best post regarding weather variations and therefore options available to you. If weather really is a significant factor then I don't think you can compare these options with Seattle. The Bay Area wins hands down. Just pick your micro climate which best suites you.
I would suggest the Palo Alto/Stanford area for better, sunnier weather. And it really is one of the most beautiful parts of the Bay Area IMO. There are even homes with redwood trees growing in the yards. Unlike the city (SF) it is much more green with more trees and much better, more modern architecture and neighborhoods. By comparison homes in metro SF are too old, crammed together, way overpriced with little to no yards. If you work in the medical field its a very exciting place to be with the world class research done at Stanford. People literally travel from around the world to have surgeries performed here based on break through medical discoveries. Two family members have traveled to Stanford for this. One has basically been cured of his MS because of the treatments he received. If you can swing it I don't think you will regret it.
The big caveat is cost. You will have to really explore the housing market with your husband to see if prices would ever be doable. Since you mentioned you don't have children a smaller place may be alright in one of the nicer areas. This varies from family to family as everyone has different housing budgets. And you may have to give up something to gain somthing else. Quality of life usually goes far beyond the size of one's home. But this again varies per individual.
Based on the criteria mentioned I think this boils down to: best weather vs. cost.
I can't speak to the vegan scene. However others have already addressed this. Its sounds like you will find like minded folks in both regions, though they may not be meccas.
I will say that Seattle is definately one of the most beautiful cities I have seen abounding with outdoor activities and jaw dropping nature all around. For natural beauty the PNW cannot be beat. Seattle wins here no question. You just have to deal with months of clouds and lack of sun.
Here is a crazier thought or maybe not so cazy: why not try both!?! Since you have no children and plan to rent anyway you are more mobile. This might be the perfect time to experience two incredible parts of the country. Lets face reality - no place is perfect. But both have very strong merits. And living in each city will give you all that you will need to know regarding where you want to reside for the long term.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 06-23-2012 at 11:45 AM..
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