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I'm trying to decide whether to move to the Bay Area (most likely Oakland/Berkeley area, but possibly in San Francisco) or NYC (Williamsburg) come August.
About me:
22 year old gay male, just graduated with my BA in Music and Computer Science. Seeking a job as a UI/UX designer at a startup. Expecting to make around 80k. Taking my cat, my computer, and not much else.
What I'm looking for:
Walkability and public transportation - Ideally I would like to sell my car and walk/bike everywhere. I want to live in a neighborhood close enough to walk to shops and activity without much difficulty. Currently, NYC takes the lead in this regard, due to more reliable public transit and a denser city. What are the densest/most walkable neighborhoods in the Bay Area?
Climate and proximity to hiking - I suspect I have seasonal depression, and I would like to avoid winter as much as possible. I've lived in the Appalachian mountains for the past 9 years and really appreciate being able to leave the city and go hiking or camping. San Francisco seems like a clear winner here.
Gay community - Both cities have extensive gay communities, so I'm interested more in the broad differences between the two cultures.
Relaxed work ethic - It seems like SF wins here, although I'm turned off by the echo chamber the tech world has created there. What are some of the differences between how New Yorkers and San Franciscans approach work (especially in tech)?
Access to fresh food - I hear Oakland has an amazing farmer's market that is open all week. Ideally I'd also like to start gardening, either on my own or as part of a community plot.
Other things to consider:
Cost of living - About the same in either place, it seems. Apartments may be larger/nicer in SF.
Proximity to family and friends - NY wins by a long shot. It would be much easier to get set up in NYC, but would it be better?
I've researched comparisons between the two cities and read a lot of opinions on this forum and elsewhere... just interested in getting a bit more feedback now, since most of what I found is a few years old.
I'm from NY, and lived in SF and now the peninsula. I think your assessments in each category are mostly spot-on, although I don't know much about the gay community because I'm an outsider.
BTW, you do need a car to access the best outdoors activities here. You can do car share or rent, however, but I would prefer to own for this purpose alone (i.e. camping, longer trips; also I have other needs for a car.)
Cost of living, however - money pressures are very high in both places. SF is, IMO, a bit cheaper than all but the fringes of Manhattan. But both are exorbitant. What's your financial situation? I like to put it in money terms. I think 80k is the bare minimum to get by in SF today; you will still share. . And if you dont' 'have a path to make well over 100k, you will feel left behind quickly; as you get older you will have fewer options, you'll be squeezed. Less true in NY - if one is willing to go outside the core, say into places outside Manhattan, there is much more value to be had in NY area.
My take on California and the Bay Area is this. If you don't truly, really prize access to nature and the weather, aren't willing to pay a premium for that, and you aren't ambitious re: earning high pay, and you're not in technology (i.e. the choice of companies within tech here is large = that's good), I don't see how it is worth living here in the long haul unless maybe you have strong family connections. It's just insanely expensive.
I last lived in NY in 2003. It is not relaxed for most career fields, but it depends on what you do.
NY will have many many more walkable areas. It depends on what your standard for walkability is. I mean, even Williamsburgh has more walkable shopping (cafes, bars, etc) than almost every neighborhood in SF. It's the density of NYC and even parts of NJ that makes that feasible. In SF (and a little bit in Oak), you get a lot of very nice but short pedestrian strips that you can walk the length of in 15 minutes. In NY, there are areas where you can literally spend an hour just walking, not stopping...walking...and seeing shop after shop after shop. That just does not exist here outside of the Eastern third of SF.
One more thing: NYC and NY-metro transit is vastly superior in reliability, frequency, and capacity to SF and the Bay Area. We really need to improve this soon, traffic is rapidly getting unbearable here. I'm worried about what it will be like in 5 years. In NY, that's all baked in, it is not experiencing hyper job growth.
You asked a lot of good questions: "Relaxed work ethic - It seems like SF wins here, although I'm turned off by the echo chamber the tech world has created there. What are some of the differences between how New Yorkers and San Franciscans approach work (especially in tech)?"
Solutionism and a naive belief that technology can accomplish everything that is valuable to humanity is rampant here. The HBO show Silicon Valley is great, you could think of it as a documentary. However, aside from that, there are many really great companies here. You can't have one without the other.
In NYC, there are a lot of people for whom work is their life - and increasingly, this is true of the Bay Area. In NY, it's just different industries...Wall Street, law, real estate, media, professional services, and now tech. Here it's tech and associated services.
You can go camping or hiking and live in NYC - you just have to drive 4 or 5 hours north into New Hampshire, VT, or Maine to really get away. Some places upstate, too. In CA, nature is more dramatically beautiful, and there are nice options much much closer to the Bay Area. But you wont' get that sense of isolation close-in on weekends except in very few places. You will probably find yourself also going 4,5, 6 hours away to really get away from people and get closer to the big mountains. In CA, you seemingly get 12 months where you can be outdoors, but not quite -- assuming that the rain returns someday, in the Oct thru March range, it could be raining on any given weekend you would want to go away.
You asked a lot of good questions: "Relaxed work ethic - It seems like SF wins here, although I'm turned off by the echo chamber the tech world has created there. What are some of the differences between how New Yorkers and San Franciscans approach work (especially in tech)?"
Solutionism and a naive belief that technology can accomplish everything that is valuable to humanity is rampant here. The HBO show Silicon Valley is great, you could think of it as a documentary. However, aside from that, there are many really great companies here. You can't have one without the other.
In NYC, there are a lot of people for whom work is their life - and increasingly, this is true of the Bay Area. In NY, it's just different industries...Wall Street, law, real estate, media, professional services, and now tech. Here it's tech and associated services.
You can go camping or hiking and live in NYC - you just have to drive 4 or 5 hours north into New Hampshire, VT, or Maine to really get away. Some places upstate, too. In CA, nature is more dramatically beautiful, and there are nice options much much closer to the Bay Area. But you wont' get that sense of isolation close-in on weekends except in very few places. You will probably find yourself also going 4,5, 6 hours away to really get away from people and get closer to the big mountains. In CA, you seemingly get 12 months where you can be outdoors, but not quite -- assuming that the rain returns someday, in the Oct thru March range, it could be raining on any given weekend you would want to go away.
Thank you for the incredibly detailed and helpful responses. I'm expecting to make 80k starting out but that will go up within about a year, so I think I would be ok, finance-wise.
If I did decide to keep my car for weekend trips, how expensive is parking? Another thing that worries me is driving cross-country... my '94 Honda already has 210k miles on it (but the engine only has about 75k). Then again, a road trip across the States would be fun, I think.
4 or 5 hours to go camping outside of NYC is a bit much. When things are too far away I just stop considering them as an option at some point. That's why I would like to live close enough to walk to shops and drive to hiking on a day trip on a whim. I know it's a lot to ask. I'll keep thinking on it. Thanks again for your response.
Don't know but I'd guess at least a couple hundred a month. And in many areas where there are no high rises (almost all of SF) , large garages are rare - you are forced to use the street or be lucky to find an available garage. If your car is well maintained, e.g. things like belts, hoses, tires...you should be fine. Get Triple A if you're worried.
If you move here, you'll learn what's available 4 to 6 hours away, and you'll go. Like Yosemite, for example, and maybe 10 other things. Distances seem shorter here.
I never found SF to be more relaxed in work ethic tbh. People are just as work focused here as they are there. More people have their heads buried in the phones here.
I'd say apartment size/cost is around the same, but you have access to cheaper options in NYC I think. Whereas cheaper options here sticks you an hour away from the city by car.
Don't know but I'd guess at least a couple hundred a month. And in many areas where there are no high rises (almost all of SF) , large garages are rare - you are forced to use the street or be lucky to find an available garage. If your car is well maintained, e.g. things like belts, hoses, tires...you should be fine. Get Triple A if you're worried.
If you move here, you'll learn what's available 4 to 6 hours away, and you'll go. Like Yosemite, for example, and maybe 10 other things. Distances seem shorter here.
I wonder why that is, distances seeming shorter. I'll reconsider keeping my car, thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by likealady
I never found SF to be more relaxed in work ethic tbh. People are just as work focused here as they are there. More people have their heads buried in the phones here.
I'd say apartment size/cost is around the same, but you have access to cheaper options in NYC I think. Whereas cheaper options here sticks you an hour away from the city by car.
I am a native NY'er, born and raised there, lived there my first 36 years, moved to SF for a job and a girl I had met and wanted to get serious with. Lived in the Bay Area from 1999-2006 (lived in the East Bay, Walnut Creek), and loved every second of it. I only moved back to NYC because I got divorced from that girl, and wanted to be near family for support. I wish i would have stayed there, I miss it every day. I absolutely HATE NY, so over crowded, the summers are brutal, especially any days over 90, with the high humidity (Bay Area has low humidity), and winters have become unbearable with a ton of snow storms.
Results may vary, I happen to love everything about the Bay Area, the beauty, the weather, the laid back way of life (compared to NYC), the fact you can take a quick Ferry Ride to Sausalito (one of my favorites), or a quick car ride to Napa/Sonoma (also some favorites), you CAN'T get anything like those two places in NY. I miss the Bay Area every day, and hate NYC, I hope to move back one day and retire there.
Thank you for the incredibly detailed and helpful responses. I'm expecting to make 80k starting out but that will go up within about a year, so I think I would be ok, finance-wise.
If I did decide to keep my car for weekend trips, how expensive is parking? Another thing that worries me is driving cross-country... my '94 Honda already has 210k miles on it (but the engine only has about 75k). Then again, a road trip across the States would be fun, I think.
4 or 5 hours to go camping outside of NYC is a bit much. When things are too far away I just stop considering them as an option at some point. That's why I would like to live close enough to walk to shops and drive to hiking on a day trip on a whim. I know it's a lot to ask. I'll keep thinking on it. Thanks again for your response.
Re parking:
Depends on where you live. My apartment (renting a condo) in Piedmont Ave area of Oakland has garage parking bundled for free. In my neighborhood, the parking add-on ranges from about $50-$100 a month. Other neighborhoods can have free bundled parking, easy or hard street parking or in downtown, it is more pricey ($200 or so a month). In the rest of Oakland it is included or under $100.
As for hiking, I am not one of those outdoorsy people, but contrary to popular belief, there is actually quite a lot of hiking options in the city limits of Oakland and in the Berkeley hills. There is also camping in the Oakland city limits! At Redwood Regional Park or Joaquin Miller park. There is also Lake Temescal and Tilden Park in a few miles radius.
Open up the radius to around 15-20 miles from Oakland/Berkeley and you add in Marin County, Mount Diablo. I think the reservoir off of San Pablo Dam Road may have options too.
At the 90 mile radius, you have Point Reyes, Mount Madonna, Santa Cruz Mountains, and Big Sur along the coast. A 2 hours drive gets you a lot of stuff.
A quick note about the car. I have a car, my current commute is via transit. Lately I have taken to riding my bike for short distances, so my car isn't used much. I generally pedal to anything in the 3-5 mile radius unless I need to drive other people for some reason. The hiking areas of Oakland and Berkeley, while close are a little too high in the hills for me to bike too, but you might find it manageable too. As for shopping and the like, there are so many good commercial districts in my 3 mile radius, it is an easy trip to the next neighborhood if I do not like what is in mine. Piedmont Ave, Rockridge, Emeryville, Grand Lake, Uptown, Downtown, Jack London Square, Temescal, Elmwood, the Cal Campus, the Glenview and the Dimond are all in ~3 miles.
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