Entry-level software engineer in SV (Berkeley, Davis: mortgage, how much, job market)

[CyberShot]

I'm a junior at UC Davis who's switching from physics to computer science so that I can graduate on time and with a good job as a software guy in the bay area.

My question is: How hard will the competition be in securing good jobs at top companies? Assuming I graduate with a 3.2 gpa, 3 month internship, and solid recommendations.

What will the starting salary be? Have I made the right choice to go where the money's at? I mean, let's be honest. Times are hard, and to survive in this economy, you really need to be financially stable.

I also keep worrying about all these people talking about the competition coming from China and India, and that all the jobs are being outsourced. Is the software field in Silicon Valley really on the rise? Will there be good jobs, with high starting pay in the soon coming years?

Your thoughts?

[Nell Plotts]

Were I you I would visit your school placement office and ask what happened to last year's graduates. That was the worst of the worst employment condition.

No one can predict the future.

[gnomatic]

Originally Posted by CyberShot

My question is: How hard will the competition be in securing good jobs at top companies? Assuming I graduate with a 3.2 gpa, 3 month internship, and solid recommendations.

What will the starting salary be? Have I made the right choice to go where the money's at?

Don't be a software engineer because it's "WHERE THE MONEY'S AT". You need to really like the work.

At the top companies, as a new grad, with the information you provided. I think it will be hard, even 2 years from now. Your best chance, get an internship the summer before your senior year, work damn hard to impress them, get an offer for a permanent position for after your graduation. Ideally you will have more than one internship under your belt for you graduate.

[CyberShot]

Originally Posted by gnomatic

Don't be a software engineer because it's "WHERE THE MONEY'S AT". You need to really like the work. At the top companies, as a new grad, with the information you provided. I think it will be hard, even 2 years from now.

Why would it be hard? Is UC Davis considered a "top-tier" school? At least, in the Bay Area I think it would be. The only competitors are Berkeley and Stanford.


From BLS.gov:
"Computer software engineers are among the occupations projected to grow the fastest and add the most new jobs over the 2008-18 decade, resulting in excellent job prospects."

Originally Posted by gnomatic

Your best chance, get an internship the summer before your senior year, work damn hard to impress them, get an offer for a permanent position for after your graduation. Ideally you will have more than one internship under your belt for you graduate.

Why does it have to be the summer before senior year? I'm behind in my cs classes and won't catch up until next year. Thus, I wouldn't even have the necessary cs skills to intern. Can't I do an internship with a software company the summer I graduate? And then hopefully stay with them full-time?

[gnomatic]

I am not sure the relevance of the BLS.gov quote. It mentions prospects for Software Engineers.

Having a degree in Comp Sci/Engineering isn't a guarantee ticket to anything. It's an education, a degree, that's all it is. It doesn't make you a software engineer. The degree is often just the bare minimum education requirement to become one.

The big companies, the ones everyone want to work for, take their pick from the top students, from the top tier schools NATIONALLY for interns and new grads. And we are talking about people with M.Sc. these days, not B.Sc.

Otherwise, it's about networking...current employees likes to recruit interns & new grads from their alma maters. Nell Potts's advice to check your schools placement office is a good one. On campus recruiting is the best way to get the interview.

I don't know other other industries, but I worked for some of the biggest high tech companies around. Interns (in engineering anyways) tend to be CURRENTLY enrolled students, or ones who were going on to do their graduate degrees.

[Zeya]

Originally Posted by CyberShot

My question is: How hard will the competition be in securing good jobs at top companies? Assuming I graduate with a 3.2 gpa, 3 month internship, and solid recommendations.

It will be stiff competition. I was laid off twice in the span of a year. I graduated in '05, and I found it difficult to find a job especially after the second time being laid off. I was "this close" to taking an unpaid job (startup without funding), that's how bad it was.

You need to be prepared for a drawn-out search. It will take you at least 3 months to find a job, probably more like 6 months or more. You need to have a "safety net" - either a cache of funds, or more likely, your parents' support.

What will the starting salary be? Have I made the right choice to go where the money's at?

Good questions. Don't expect the moon and stars as a starting salary. When I graduated in early '05 with a BSE in CS, I first worked at an unpaid internship for about 3 months. Emphasis: unpaid. That was to get my foot in the door. Then I interviewed at 2 companies, one of which gave me an offer that I accepted. My starting salary was 56k/year. (This was at a video game company and they tend to have underwhelming pay and long hours, fyi.) After 1-2 years: 65k. Then 75k. Then 85k. Then a little bit more. You see the pattern. I hope you understand why I don't want to get too specific. But each time you move jobs, you tend to get a little bit more money. So in short: don't expect much more than a salary in the 60s. I wouldn't even risk trying to negotiate; if you get an offer, just take it. I know too many people out of work.

If I could go back in time, I would stay on for my Masters' degree. You should consider that, especially in this job market. Don't bother with a PHD for CS though; that's a waste of money (except if you want to stay in the ivory tower and be a professor, but that doesn't sound like you want to).

I also keep worrying about all these people talking about the competition coming from China and India, and that all the jobs are being outsourced. Is the software field in Silicon Valley really on the rise? Will there be good jobs, with high starting pay in the soon coming years?

Your thoughts?

About India/China: outsourcing there is a very big concern for manufacturing. At the 4 companies I've worked at (all software jobs), I've only seen outsourcing for "artwork", i.e. 3D modeling/texturing. And they did a horrible job requiring all kinds of extra work to fix mistakes. I've heard that some web stuff is outsourced sometimes, but I'm not sure. But for the most part, I don't think outsourcing has had much effect on true-and-blue software. Look how much education you needed to get a job. It's not like working in a production plant where anyone with enough physical stamina can do the job.

Is software in Silicon Valley on the rise? Will there be good jobs in coming years? I don't think this area is going to go the way of Detroit. Like others said, nobody knows the future though. Let's just say I'm cautiously optimistic.


To conclude... Good luck. You're gonna need it. For your job search, keep in mind that networking is key. Anyone you know in the industry - suck up to them and get any help you can. Get them to hand off your resume to their boss wherever you can. Treat your job search like a full-time job. Don't just take days off in the middle of the week because that's when HR people do their hiring, especially monday through wednesday. Emphasize your strengths: willingness to move anywhere, no kids or mortgage to take time from work (slip that in during a verbal interview, not on a resume), your sheer potential, your enthusiasm. Companies hire new grads for these reasons: cheaper than a veteran, you're probably going to work longer hours enthusiastically and be less jaded, and your potential - you could be a genius and they can have you initially on the cheap.

Good luck again.

[Nell Plotts]

Absolutely networking is key. I have a nephew who is a SE at Microsoft. Out of college he was overlooked initially until a former classmate told them they were making a BIG mistake. Initially he lived (literally) in his office. Now he is a key individual contributor.

[sonarrat]

There are lots of jobs, and companies are hurting for talent. But they'll need convincing if you don't have experience and good references.

[80skeys]

Comes and goes in cycles. Right now things have heated up in Silicon Valley. A lot of hiring is going on. But that could change in a year and become stagnant. I'm pretty new to the Bay Area (6 months) but my colleagues tell me it was a tough market about a year ago. If you're going to work in this field, I think you have to adjust yourself to the boom and bust.

My understanding about Silicon Valley is that the financial rewards go to the software engineers who have Master's or Ph'd's and know how to use math, so you might want to consider staying in school for a higher degree and brushing up on your math.

[Nell Plotts]

IMHO anything over a masters degree in SE is a waste of time and tuition unless you want to be an academic.