Spit-Balling a New Savannah Station (Atlanta, Macon: apartments, hotels, houses)

[fourthwarden]

So, I've been contemplating what it might take / look like to try and bring Savannah's passenger rail station closer in to downtown. The current Amtrak station is very much out of the way, and in a part of the city that basically excludes any opportunity to just walk off the train and to final destinations.

Moving the station closer in would help allow people to make day trips by train, not only on the current Amtrak routes, but on any future intercity routes as well, say from Atlanta or Macon.

The most obvious location to move the station to, to me, was the old Central of Georgia Railway Terminal that currently houses the visitor and history center. Unlike the other historic passenger terminals, the CGR terminal's lead-in was still fairly intact, being mostly clear for the reintroduction of tracks. Additionally, there is a small yard along that lead-in that could be repurposed into a staging yard for passenger trains, as well as a patch of undeveloped land which could be used for a small maintenance facility.

Here is an overview of what I imagined:





Now a closeup on the new station facilities:





The station facilities would reactivate the Central of Georgia Passenger Terminal, requiring the platforms be extended to accommodate larger modern train sets. Since only one terminal would be being reactivated for all of Savannah's future traffic, new station buildings would likely be needed, not only to handle the people, but also any support offices for crews and staff.

As something of an extension of this, I've suggested relocating the Savannah History Center to an attached part of the new station building, providing plenty of new space for it, and allowing it to remain as a visitor's center for anyone coming to the city fresh off the train. The Coastal Georgia Center remains untouched, though it could maybe have a new walkway access to the new facilities if wanted.

New parking structures would be needed to make up for lost lot-space, as well as new demand for the station. With that would come a new true through-street between MLK and W Boundary, allowing easier entrance and egress from the new facilities.

Not shown, but likely needed in some capacity, is some kind of pedestrian path between the new station and the JMR Transit Center a couple of blocks away.

Anyway, just wanted to share something that's been sitting in the back of my mind for a while now!

[WanderingImport]

Why not send this idea to city leaders or people with importance/that make those decisions?

It's a great idea and should be shared to city leaders.

[masonbauknight]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

So, I've been contemplating what it might take / look like to try and bring Savannah's passenger rail station closer in to downtown. The current Amtrak station is very much out of the way, The most obvious location to move the station to, to me, was the old Central of Georgia Railway Terminal that currently houses the visitor and history center. Unlike the other historic passenger terminals, the CGR terminal's lead-in was still fairly intact, being mostly clear for the reintroduction of tracks. Additionally, there is a small yard along that lead-in that could be repurposed into a staging yard for passenger trains, as well as a patch of undeveloped land which could be used for a small maintenance facility.Here is an overview of what I imagined:Now a closeup on the new station facilities:
The station facilities would reactivate the Central of Georgia Passenger Terminal, requiring the platforms be extended to accommodate larger modern train sets. Since only one terminal would be being reactivated for all of Savannah's future traffic, new station buildings would likely be needed, not only to handle the people, but also any support offices for crews and staff.
As something of an extension of this, I've suggested relocating the Savannah History Center to an attached part of the new station building, providing plenty of new space for it, and allowing it to remain as a visitor's center for anyone coming to the city fresh off the train. The Coastal Georgia Center remains untouched, though it could maybe have a new walkway access to the new facilities if wanted.
New parking structures would be needed to make up for lost lot-space, as well as new demand for the station. With that would come a new true through-street between MLK and W Boundary, allowing easier entrance and egress from the new facilities.
Not shown, but likely needed in some capacity, is some kind of pedestrian path between the new station and the JMR Transit Center a couple of blocks away.
Anyway, just wanted to share something that's been sitting in the back of my mind for a while now!

What planet are folks living on? First, Amtrak prefers to site small-city stations like Savannah's well outside town. The South is not Germany, with populous urban centers close to others. There's no sense slowing down traffic to Florida with stops in small (and in Savannah's case, isolated) downtowns. Second, only metropolises like Philadelphia or New York, which feed lots of passengers and receive them too, will have downtown train terminals. Third, the only exception to this would be some kind of regional rail system to link Georgia's largest cities. That's been proposed by a few utopians on C-D Georgia threads, but unfortunately that won't happen in car-loving, anti-public-transit Georgia soon.

"The current Amtrak station is very much out of the way." That was Amtrak's intent and still is. Your scenario is Savannah-centric and prohibitively expensive for a small city -- without even considering science-fiction schemes to move Savannah's History Center and other buildings to free up room (in a National Landmark Historic District yet!) for a rail center suitable for Minneapolis-St. Paul. On a scale of 1 to 10, I give the likelihood of all that a zero. Metro Savannah has just under 400,000 people. Your blueprint (even discounting all the chaos and dislocation it would cause) would be impossible even for a metro of twice that population.

[SavannahLife]

That, and everyone will have self driving flying Teslas in the future. According to a marketing statement released by Elon Musk in circa 2028...

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by masonbauknight

What planet are folks living on? First, Amtrak prefers to site small-city stations like Savannah's well outside town.

I'm not sure where you get this idea. Here is a 2012 Amtrak Station Program and Planning Guide that explicitly shows Caretaker level stations, which Savannah has, as being well within Amtrak's design guide to be in the center of town (Page 29).

Off the top of my head I can say name a few stations of similar (and less) service level that are happily within the centers of their towns.

Flagstaff. Williams. Bryan. Gainsville. Jesup. Towns not much bigger, and even a good bit smaller, than Savannah, but with centralized stations. There are many, many more examples. If such a station as I proposed above was actually presented and funded, especially with access to one of the wyes for turning trains before they return to the mainline, I would be quite surprised if Amtrak turned down the offer.

The South is not Germany, with populous urban centers close to others. There's no sense slowing down traffic to Florida with stops in small (and in Savannah's case, isolated) downtowns.

This is not Germany, no. That doesn't mean that the trains going to Florida don't already stop in small downtowns, though. Heck, they often stop in downtowns far smaller than Savannah's.

Second, only metropolises like Philadelphia or New York, which feed lots of passengers and receive them too, will have downtown train terminals.

According to 2006 estimates from GDOT, a thrice daily Atlanta to Macon to Savannah intercity service would see some 551,000 riders a year. Then there's the Jacksonville intercity rail route that would add another 161,000 annual riders. Of course not all of them would be using Savannah, but even taking a 20% of each route using the Savannah Station, we get a total of 142,400 annual passengers.

That's in addition to Amtrak's current 57,180 annual passengers using Savannah.

Totaling all of that gives you 199,580, which would put Savannah's station well within Amtrak's 100,000 lower annual rider limit for a Category 2 Medium Station, which has locations of "City center /suburban/airport/town center". Emphasis mine.

That's not even taking into account the other potential routes and services that could use the station facilities, not least of which is the designated HSR corridor between Atlanta and Savannah.

Third, the only exception to this would be some kind of regional rail system to link Georgia's largest cities. That's been proposed by a few utopians on C-D Georgia threads, but unfortunately that won't happen in car-loving, anti-public-transit Georgia soon.

True about a new service, likely from the state, being the only real way to justify moving the station, but this was, after all, a thought experiment. Not a suggestion to drop everything and make it happen tomorrow. The state is working on transit right now, and we'll have to see what comes out of that.

"The current Amtrak station is very much out of the way." That was Amtrak's intent and still is.

I mean, maybe, but Amtrak has plenty of examples of small and smaller towns than Savannah with a downtown-focused station. Heck, their own design guidelines call out as much.

Your scenario is Savannah-centric and prohibitively expensive for a small city -- without even considering science-fiction schemes to move Savannah's History Center and other buildings to free up room (in a National Landmark Historic District yet!) for a rail center suitable for Minneapolis-St. Paul.

How would moving the buildings' contents be science fiction? Reactivating old buildings is done all the time, as is building off of them into an expanded facility. As I've already said, though, this is not something to do now. It's a thought experiment for the future.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I give the likelihood of all that a zero. Metro Savannah has just under 400,000 people. Your blueprint (even discounting all the chaos and dislocation it would cause) would be impossible even for a metro of twice that population.

I do not have nearly as pessimistic an outlook on the potential of a station relocation, though I guess that was obvious. Especially with a combined effort of Federal, State, Local, and private funds all working together to make it happen should the prospect of future service come into play. Besides, even if Savannah itself isn't very big itself, it has a huge tourism and business draw. Savannah is, after all, a port city. It is a terminal through which much flows, even if it itself is not home to many.

[masonbauknight]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Caretaker...Savannah well within the design

That's irrelevant. There's no way Amtrak will slow passenger traffic down and reroute it from an easy bypass through a busy corridor of highways, interstates, interchanges, a huge cable-stayed bridge, increasing urban sprawl in West Chatham, and (coming eventually) a Canal District. Amtrak is not crackers, and even if it was, it has neither the funds nor the desire to reroute traffic through the obstacle course of NW Savannah. And for what? Once it gets there, it finds itself in a National Historic District, where space is at a premium and must be approved. Amtrak would want yards and heaven knows what else. The City of Savannah would never sign off on it within the HD. Your dream is a total chaos scenario -- moving historic museums two blocks away and repurposing buildings. Pure science fiction. This is Historic Savannah we're talking about, not Perry.

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

This is not Germany, no.. doesn't mean trans don't already stop in small downtowns

It's far worse than Germany. The United States is a country where basic train, transit, and infrastructure dollars are scarce or nonexistent, and where southerners don't use transit except for its poorest citizens. Savannah would not gain enough tourists to justify the mega-costs and mega-disruption you're proposing. Savannah is also too small to be a priority for scarce transportation dollars (from Amtrak or anywhere else). Even cities twice Savannah's size don't make the cut. Finally, small towns you mention on the Amtrak path with downtown stations were already convenient to Amtrak. The congestion of NW Savannah was not suitable even back in the 1960s, and it is far more unmanageable for such a grandiose project now.

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Especially with Federal, State, local, and private funds working together.

Another pure fantasy. This is Georgia, not the Pacific Northwest or coastal New England. There is zero money, and there are no parties in Georgia dumb enough to fund such a boondoggle, and site it (of all places) within a National Landmark Historic District. Your plans are 120% impossible.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by masonbauknight

That's irrelevant. There's no way Amtrak will slow passenger traffic down and reroute it from an easy bypass through a busy corridor of highways, interstates, interchanges, a huge cable-stayed bridge, increasing urban sprawl in West Chatham, and (coming eventually) a Canal District.

Moving a station closer to the city center, and using it to anchor new transit oriented development, as well as infilling both undeveloped land and underused infrastructure is quite literally the opposite of sprawl.

Also, I don't see what the highway network has to do with any of this. The tracks would still be separated from high-traffic roads, running under highway and interstate bridges. There is nothing about a more downtown location that cause interference on Amtrak's services from the roads.

Amtrak is not crackers, and even if it was, it has neither the funds nor the desire to reroute traffic through the obstacle course of NW Savannah.

Hense the suggestions to have state, federal, local, and private funds help should such a project become a actual plan. Also, it's not much of an obstacle course. One new turn-out from the NW, then straight into the station. A new turn-out to allow trains to turn around using the terminal approach, then one more new turn out to more easily access the Alabama Junction north eastern approach.

That may sound like a lot, but it's really not that complicated. Amtrak uses terminal stations plenty. New Orleans and Denver both have them, and in Denver's case it's also a mid-route station. If offered the facilities, I doubt Amtrak would turn down it down.

And for what? Once it gets there, it finds itself in a National Historic District, where space is at a premium and must be approved.

I mean, I would hope that such a project would have approval before Amtrak just started sending train that way. Otherwise it would be a bit awkward for the SCAD peeps, don't you think?

There's tons of room for new development, and parking consolidation in that part of town, so this isn't nearly as big an issue as I think you think it is.

Amtrak would want yards and heaven knows what else. The City of Savannah would never sign off on it within the HD.

Which is why, if you look at the images, I've included putting the maintenance yard between the tracks, U.S. 17, and Louisville Rd, a place with so little historic value that they put a freeway through it. The staging yard would use the existing yard between Comer and Louisville.

Your dream is a total chaos scenario -- moving historic museums two blocks away and repurposing buildings. Pure science fiction. This is Historic Savannah we're talking about, not Perry.

Did you... even look at the pictures? The new museum building would literally be adjacent to, and attached to the existing one. Reactivating, and repurposing historic buildings without hurting them is extremely common, and not at all the realm of science fiction.

Nothing would be lost, unless you consider parking lots to be historic.

[/quote]It's far worse than Germany. The United States is a country where basic train, transit, and infrastructure dollars are scarce or nonexistent, and where southerners don't use transit except for its poorest citizens.[/quote]

Sounds like we should do something about that. Say, maybe, dedicating some funding to basic train, transit and infrastructure. Don't be upset at the station idea for currently being out of budget when the budget should be large enough to handle the station idea in the first place.

Savannah would not gain enough tourists to justify the mega-costs and mega-disruption you're proposing.

Which is why I've also suggested including transit oriented development in the process, filling in empty and underused land within a half-mile of the station. New hotels, shops, apartments, and many other things can all feed off of the increased mobility offered by the station and the rail services it would allow.

Savannah is also too small to be a priority for scarce transportation dollars (from Amtrak or anywhere else). Even cities twice Savannah's size don't make the cut.

Again, sounds to me that you're misdirecting your anger. You should be upset with those who dictate funding, not my proposal.

Finally, small towns you mention on the Amtrak path with downtown stations were already convenient to Amtrak. The congestion of NW Savannah was not suitable even back in the 1960s, and it is far more unmanageable for such a grandiose project now.

It's a good thing trains, transit, and walking are all far more space efficient methods of moving people than with cars, then. Sounds like we should be doing all we can to get the both the station and local transit built out if congestion is so bad.

Another pure fantasy. This is Georgia, not the Pacific Northwest or coastal New England. There is zero money, and there are no parties in Georgia dumb enough to fund such a boondoggle, and site it (of all places) within a National Landmark Historic District. Your plans are 120% impossible.

You're right, this is Georgia, the 8th most populated state and the 8th largest economy in the Union. That's as opposed to Oregon and Washington, which are only #27 & #13, and #25 & #14 respectively.

There's plenty of money if we'd bother to actually go out and get it. Especially for economic boons such as increasing mobility, while anchoring transit-oriented development, all without doing one thing to hurt historic buildings or sites.

[WanderingImport]

Let's have some vision, people. It's not out of the rhealm of possibilities and is a pretty darn good idea.

I hate to see pessimists rain all over progress. That's what holds Savannah and Georgia back from it's true potential.

It's like saying, why bother expanding MARTA because it doesn't go anywhere.

[masonbauknight]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Moving a station closer to the city center, and using it to anchor new transit oriented development, as well as infilling both undeveloped land and underused infrastructure is quite literally the opposite of sprawl.
Hense the suggestions to have state, federal, local, and private funds help should such a project become a actual plan. Also, it's not much of an obstacle course. One new turn-out from the NW, then straight into the station.

Which is why I've also suggested including transit oriented development in the process, filling in empty and underused land within a half-mile of the station. New hotels, shops, apartments, and many other things can all feed off of the increased mobility offered by the station and the rail services it would allo

You're right, this is Georgia, the 8th most populated state and the 8th largest economy in the Union. That's as opposed to Oregon and Washington, which are only #27 & #13, and #25 & #14 respectively

No, no. By sprawl, I mean the one that has developed west of town in the last 20 years. I wasn't referring to your new station creating it. Amtrak specifically avoided a downtown Savannah terminal because of the traffic congestion and lack of growing room in NW Savannah. That was in 1961. Since then, West Chatham has all the hallmarks of sprawl, and the traffic to Savannah is much greater. Also, Savannah's downtown was declared a National Landmark Historic District (1966), and is far more crowded with activity and far more traveled within. Total space anywhere near the Central of Georgia building is at a premium, and this is within or adjacent to a protected historic district. The Savannah Canal District is being planned to the west. A downtown train terminal is a complete no-go.

Denver! Denver has a metro population of 2.8 million. What it offers and what Savannah can offer are not in the least comparable. Amtrak would never consider this. And you do realize that Amtrak is cash-starved. It can't even pay for infrastructure improvements to avoid grave accidents like the ones it had in Philadelphia and Tacoma. There is no private help possible for your scheme (unless a huge corporation like an automaker relocates to Chatham County). Also, the City Council and Historic Foundation will not and cannot approve big passenger trains at the front door of Yamacraw Bluff. This is historic Savannah, not a strip mall in Warner Robins.

Georgia's 8th-ranked population is beside the point. Oregon's statehouse might contemplate projects like yours. Georgia does not. Georgia is anti-transit and has other priorities (like roads and the Port of Savannah). Grandiose, over-the-moon transportation projects are completely and totally unrealistic for 2nd-tier cities. Georgia might consider limited transportation works in metro Atlanta, or Atlanta-Athens, but not for the rest of the state. This plan is also 100% unworkable for NW Savannah, which is congested and will get worse. You are wildly off the mark here.

Originally Posted by WanderingImport

Let's have some vision, people. It's not out of the rhealm of possibilities and is a pretty darn good idea. I hate to see pessimists rain all over progress. That's what holds Savannah and Georgia back from it's true potential. It's like saying, why bother expanding MARTA because it doesn't go anywhere.

That's it: this is out of the realm of possibilities. "What holds Savannah back" is a worthwhile debate, but it doesn't start with grand schemes fit for a metropolis of 1 million-plus. MARTA was a project for a city of millions. Savannah is not close to the population for a huge downtown passenger train project. In fact, the Atlanta-Greenville-Charlotte urban corridor would be tall order enough.

[SavannahLife]

RIP to our Sav. Amtrak engineer. While all this sounds neat (at least as a potential thought) the conservative Republicans in Congress are killing Amtrak and rail, and literally killing people in the process. Let's get safe trains on existing routes before we do more. Buddy Carter and co need to go.