520 tolls start on 12/29

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by Xanathos

I've neither the time nor the inclination to respond point-by-point to the blathering, but I will simply state this: What Seattle votes, the rest of the state gets dragged into. It's long been a complaint of the vast majority of the state. So don't go "Well, this isn't Seattle's toll". Seattle is the reason that bridge was able to be tolled in the 1st place, and it'll be the reason that economy over there takes a major frickin' nosedive. The municipalities here are more dependent upon consumer spending than other parts of the country. The local businesses that have higher expenses to be in Seattle are dependent upon drawing customers from the greater region. All of the money is on the other side of the lake from you. A side of the lake which is going to be coming over significantly less. Do the math.

I'd be nice if Seattle had that kind of control. Instead we get cost overrun provisions and Supermajority requirements to tax ourselves. The rest of the state loves nothing more to make Seattle dance, while at the same time slipping a hand into our pocket.

As for the Recession, again the facts disagree with you.

As of Aug 2010, Sales Tax Revenue was down 16.1% in North King (Seattle) compared to a drop of 26.3% in East King (Eastside).
http://seattletransitblog.com/wp-con...eshortfall.png

[Xanathos]

Originally Posted by Ancalagon

I'd be nice if Seattle had that kind of control. Instead we get cost overrun provisions and Supermajority requirements to tax ourselves. The rest of the state loves nothing more to make Seattle dance, while at the same time slipping a hand into our pocket.

As for the Recession, again the facts disagree with you.

As of Aug 2010, Sales Tax Revenue was down 16.1% in North King (Seattle) compared to a drop of 26.3% in East King (Eastside).
http://seattletransitblog.com/wp-con...eshortfall.png

Yes, it's the rest of the state the prevents you from taxing yourselves. Suuuure. There's some fuzzy logic. It couldn't be that it was passed because people were tired of getting heaped with fees because of Seattle.

Almost as fuzzy as finding a chart from last year's sales tax revenue and going "Well, I'm going to ignore the 28% downfall from Snohomish and the 30% from the South side vs. the 26% from the East side because those numbers don't compare favorably to my argument, and instead focus on the North side, because that makes my argument seem relevant. I'm also going to ignore the fact that, traditionally, the largest portion of money is spent on the East side. Oh, and for an added bonus, I'm going to also ignore the fact that my chart makes no correlation to how much money Eastsiders pay in sales tax within the city of Seattle itself due to total amount spent within the city, which was the whole point of the original contention in the first place."

Keep up.

[Ira500]

"All of the money is on the other side of the lake from you. "

I'm not arguing about whether tolling 520 is good or not or who is the cause of it, but can't we minimize inaccurate hyperbole here and stick to the facts, please?
In the last twelve months, 316 homes sold in the Seattle city limits which sold for one million dollars or more. There are some very wealthy neighborhoods within the Seattle city limits. sure, tolling 520 might have an impact on Seattle businesses, but to suggest that "all of the money is on the other side of the lake" suggests that Seattle is one big slum. While Seattle does have low income neighborhoods, it mostly has middle class/upper middle class neighborhoods. Maybe the east side has more wealth than Seattle does, but there are plenty of multimillionaires who have chosen to live on the Seattle side and would have it no other way.
For comparison purposes, the total number of homes sold for a million dollars or more on Mercer Island and all of Bellevue sold in the last twelve months was 281. Given the total populations of these places, it's clear that rich people like the eastside, and my stats don't even include Kirkland, Sammamish, Redmond, or Medina.
Still, there's plenty of rich people in Seattle too. You can't tell the folks on the top of Queen Anne or Broadmoor or Washington Park that "all the money" is on the eastside.

[eskercurve]

Originally Posted by Ira500

"All of the money is on the other side of the lake from you. "

Still, there's plenty of rich people in Seattle too. You can't tell the folks on the top of Queen Anne or Broadmoor or Washington Park that "all the money" is on the eastside.

You forgot about significant segments of West Seattle and Magnolia, some areas in Green Lake ...

Anyone who thinks that all the money is on the Eastside is a fool.

But to say that a significant amount of money isn't there is also foolish. Also foolish is to ignore that a significant amount of the population growth in the Seattle MSA occurred outside Seattle city limits. For the life of me I don't know why anyone with a family would choose to live in Seattle outside some pockets.

So we can't ignore what Xanathos is saying here. I don't think we should even be discussing whether its right or not to toll the bridge to pay for a new one, but what we could discuss is how much to toll. I mean, look at the tolls in Chicago's suburbs. $1.50 with a time grace period if you accidentally dash to one side and forgot something and have to go back, or whatever. It's civilized. It pays for good roads, so smooth. Compare that to the roads downtown and in inner city it's night and day.

Asking Joe driving his car at 8:15AM to fork over $5 for the inability to afford a $650k shack that is close to his work in Seattle is ludicrous. Similarly, asking him to take a bus whilst not making it easy to do so is also ludicrous. If WSDOT had announced they're building buses that arrive every 5 minutes and are erecting a 20,000 car garage (or a series of smaller ones to handle the dispersed population) to handle the onslaught of commuters while announcing this toll, I'd be happier. But no. They had to go and assume people are just too lazy to carpool or take the bus. Bull.

[civic94]

Originally Posted by eskercurve

You forgot about significant segments of West Seattle and Magnolia, some areas in Green Lake ...

Anyone who thinks that all the money is on the Eastside is a fool.

But to say that a significant amount of money isn't there is also foolish. Also foolish is to ignore that a significant amount of the population growth in the Seattle MSA occurred outside Seattle city limits. For the life of me I don't know why anyone with a family would choose to live in Seattle outside some pockets.

So we can't ignore what Xanathos is saying here. I don't think we should even be discussing whether its right or not to toll the bridge to pay for a new one, but what we could discuss is how much to toll. I mean, look at the tolls in Chicago's suburbs. $1.50 with a time grace period if you accidentally dash to one side and forgot something and have to go back, or whatever. It's civilized. It pays for good roads, so smooth. Compare that to the roads downtown and in inner city it's night and day.

Asking Joe driving his car at 8:15AM to fork over $5 for the inability to afford a $650k shack that is close to his work in Seattle is ludicrous. Similarly, asking him to take a bus whilst not making it easy to do so is also ludicrous. If WSDOT had announced they're building buses that arrive every 5 minutes and are erecting a 20,000 car garage (or a series of smaller ones to handle the dispersed population) to handle the onslaught of commuters while announcing this toll, I'd be happier. But no. They had to go and assume people are just too lazy to carpool or take the bus. Bull.

Also parts of Seward park have million dollar homes too.

3.50 each way for a commuter is 7 bucks round trip. that is really expensive. yes, if they had a new bus every 5 mins AND have a carpool lane, people will use it.

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by Xanathos

Yes, it's the rest of the state the prevents you from taxing yourselves. Suuuure. There's some fuzzy logic.

It's not fuzzy at all. As a whole King County gets back 60 cents of every dollar it sends to Olympia. The rest goes to help subsidize the rest of the state. If Seattle or King County are allowed to tax themselves, they are less likely to support State Taxes, and without the support of Seattle and it's suburbs any statewide tax wouldn't pass. Thus the State Legislature limits our ability to tax ourselves. Even when they do allow it, like with the CRC they force BS provisions like supermajority requirements.

It couldn't be that it was passed because people were tired of getting heaped with fees because of Seattle.

Reread what I said. I am referring to Olympia limiting the taxing authority of KC and Seattle.

Almost as fuzzy as finding a chart from last year's sales tax revenue and going "Well, I'm going to ignore the 28% downfall from Snohomish and the 30% from the South side vs. the 26% from the East side because those numbers don't compare favorably to my argument, and instead focus on the North side, because that makes my argument seem relevant.

You made a statement about Eastside V Seattle. I pulled up the numbers of the Eastside (East King County) and compared them to the numbers from Seattle (North King Country). What relevence do Snohomish and South King County have to our discussion?

I'm also going to ignore the fact that, traditionally, the largest portion of money is spent on the East side.

Do you have any data to back this up?

[usernametaken]

Everyone check your 520 online toll deductions. I was getting 25 cents taken out each time for a photo enforcement fee, even though I had my sticker stuck on the windshield. Turns out that in the 6 months or so since I stuck it there, it got damaged and wasn't being read correctly.

Had to get a new one for $5 from their Bellevue office, and spend 20 mins ungluing the older damaged one.

On the positive side, in a surprising twist, these government employees are actually friendly and seemed efficient.

[Hemlock140]

Originally Posted by civic94

Also parts of Seward park have million dollar homes too.

3.50 each way for a commuter is 7 bucks round trip. that is really expensive. yes, if they had a new bus every 5 mins AND have a carpool lane, people will use it.

I can't agree with the bus argument. I'm in the middle of Sammamish,
midway between Redmond and Issaquah. The bus service is minimal here, and mine runs only 4 times morning and evening, about every half hour, but it's full every morning and afternoon. Before the toll it was only 1/2 full. I expect demand to increase even more when people start getting tired of the backups on I90 that have gotten worse than 520 used to be.