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I didn't read the entire thread, because these threads are just becoming exhaustive, but on average, how many Seattle women a day does the average person here approach? 30? 20? 5? 1? 0? One a month? One a year? None?
Treuphax, you are a very intense and interesting guy and I would seriously love to sit down for coffee and discuss with you about literature, poetry and many other topics. However, women cannot necessarily handle the intensity of the male brain like another man can. I've seen from many of your posts, that you spend so much time analyzing women from the male perspective and you expect women here to be able to use the same male-type logic and rationale. Of course, in some societies, usually non-Western societies, women can adhere to their traditional roles and will behave in a manner that is much more compatible to the traditional and more natural patriarchal mind that men inherently possess. And, of course, in our modern Western society, the male brain has to be reprogrammed to adapt to the more unnatural social environment that we have created that pretty much goes against the natural order of our biology, but also against how the male/female brains were developed throughout the course of time. However, there is goods and bads to this scenario and we cannot keep fighting the system, but rather just accept it for what it is. In fact, there are many goods to our modern society and the reconstruction of gender roles and the biological rewiring of our minds and bodies.
As one other poster above stated, you really should just start talking about puppies and cats and leave the entire deep world analytical and esoterically themed philosophical discussions for when you know each other better.
Treuphax, I would suggest making several approaches a day and trying different types of approaches. Do not be invasive, clingy, needy, but rather a bit more indifferent, moderately flamboyant and perspicaciously seductive.
Avoid trying to find the ONE woman who you think can help you unravel and unlock all the hidden mysterious of the universe. Female heroines tend to be more of a Hollywood phenomenon. I'm not saying they don't exist, but you will be hard pressed to find one and you may be searching your entire life. There is one man in the MRA world, who uses the term "Unicorn Princess". I admire the label, as that to some degree or other definitely identifies what many gullible men keep chasing after. But, in reality, unicorns do not exist. Real women are emotional, judgmental, discerning and tend to be much more dull and dry than adventurous. Contrary to what we may think, they will not just open their arms to you and admire you without undergoing serious scrutiny and analyzing your entire demeanor. Basically, what we men fantasize in women tend to be the opposite of the reality of what women are. However, it's these male fantasies that keep us interested and women play the game to try to keep these fantasies alive in the male mind to cover up the true, hard and cold reality of what they are.
Of course, many women will have their share of fantasies. Many women dream of the Needy Alpha Male who will be the hero of the movies, but will totally be submissive and obedient to her every whim and command. Sadly, we men are also not so honorable as if we are independent, smart and strong-willed we tend to grow very bored of our fantasy princess quickly, as we see the reality of her humanity. Then we are off on pursuit for the next fantasy princess who most likely doesn't exist. In reality, the Needy Alpha Male does not exist either, just like the Unicorn Princess. When a man is totally at the command and control of a woman, he will end up being the Submissive Beta Male, which is the grim and true reality of many relationships today. Most men will either become submissive and subordinate to the demands and desires of a controlling female or the woman will keep clinging onto an independent man who is self-determined, strong and diligent and will end up being dumped or cheated on by him.
Last edited by RotseCherut; 07-21-2016 at 02:11 PM..
). So I wanted to know if she's lived in Seattle for long and I asked something to the effect, "Are you originally from Seattle?" Big mistake. She proceeded to educate me about how tactless and wrong it was to ask a question like that*. Now this is a big strapping white girl of Irish descent... If it were an obvious visible minority or had she spoken with an accent, I might have avoided the question altogether until having gotten to know her better.
LOL - Why would somebody admittedly treat someone differently based on her age and appearance and then look for sympathy on an anonymous message board?
Any idiot knows that the question was inappropriate if you were judging whether or not to ask it based on the color of one's skin.
As is almost always the case with these blanket social grumbles, it is the author and the author alone whose own poor attitude pre-determined his social fate.
Gawd, AS IF geography has anything to do at all with meeting and mating.
As I mentioned, she's a big strapping girl of obvious Irish-American ancestry. I know well enough to tread carefully around such ethnic and racial minefields. End result: these folks get ignored.
If Seattleites automatically assume bad faith and racism in any interaction, they really can't be helped. Paranoia, hysteria, neurosis might be epidemic.
Obviously, since we're colleagues, she is here and not a tourist. I was looking to learn more about her biography. Doesn't want to share? Fine. End of conversation. But why the lecture on "correct" conversationalism in order to shut it down? I try to be nice and reach out and get to know a colleague? I get punished. You Seattleites tell us newcomers, don't expect a red carpet, don't expect the natives to welcome you or to try to get to know you. Fine I try to make an effort and this is the response I get on several occasions.
I see. Thanks for reminding me that it was a colleague. It seems that you ran into somewhat of a nut job. Or maybe she's from the NE, where the bluebloods still look down on the Irish. Why you'd extrapolate that to "Seattle women" I have no idea. I don't know anyone like that, nor anyone who would lecture someone, rather than have a pleasant, normal conversation. I find it hard to believe that you run into this with most or many of the women you interact with. I'm sorry that happened, you were just trying to be nice and collegial, but why project it onto all Seattle women, or even anything to do with Seattle at all?
Any idiot knows that the question was inappropriate if you were judging whether or not to ask it based on the color of one's skin.
.
I'm confused now. The OP said she was Irish, so why are people making this a racial thing? Are Irish viewed as an alien race in Seattle? Or did I miss something? Is it the OP who's of non-European heritage?
OP assumed she was ethnically Irish by her appearance, and it doesn't sound like she confirmed it. Since he is not elaborating on exactly what he said or her response, we'll never know. Maybe it was just his tone.
Treuphax, I would suggest making several approaches a day and trying different types of approaches. Do not be invasive, clingy, needy, but rather a bit more indifferent, moderately flamboyant and perspicaciously seductive.
.
This is what it boils down to--numbers. Meeting numbers of people until you find a kindred soul. And kindred souls are hard to find, so it takes time, and running through a lot of numbers. Or plain luck, or a good friend who knows exactly what you're looking for, and sets you up with the right person.
The problem is, treuphax makes excuses when people say to get out there, get involved in activities, and so forth. He says all the activities one can think of are male-dominated. Well, a) no, they're not (if he'd tried several, he'd know that) and b) it doesn't matter, because the women present likely wouldn't be attracted to anyone among the hordes, you never know. It's a matter of hitting it off with someone personality-wise, and that happens rarely. So you have to do a lot of weeding and sifting to find that, just as the women are doing the same. The more often you put yourself in a position to weed and sift, the higher your chances of eventually finding gold in your pan.
Keeping to yourself due to a belief that there's too much competition out there isn't going to get you anything. And it means that your only option will be the kind of thing you've been running into some of the time: somewhat awkward conversations with personalities that are not exactly winning ones.
This is what it boils down to--numbers. Meeting numbers of people until you find a kindred soul. And kindred souls are hard to find, so it takes time, and running through a lot of numbers. Or plain luck, or a good friend who knows exactly what you're looking for, and sets you up with the right person.
The problem is, treuphax makes excuses when people say to get out there, get involved in activities, and so forth. He says all the activities one can think of are male-dominated. Well, a) no, they're not (if he'd tried several, he'd know that) and b) it doesn't matter, because the women present likely wouldn't be attracted to anyone among the hordes, you never know. It's a matter of hitting it off with someone personality-wise, and that happens rarely. So you have to do a lot of weeding and sifting to find that, just as the women are doing the same. The more often you put yourself in a position to weed and sift, the higher your chances of eventually finding gold in your pan.
Keeping to yourself due to a belief that there's too much competition out there isn't going to get you anything. And it means that your only option will be the kind of thing you've been running into some of the time: somewhat awkward conversations with personalities that are not exactly winning ones.
Words of Wisdom Ruth.. I agree entirely with your assessment.
I didn't read the entire thread, because these threads are just becoming exhaustive, but on average, how many Seattle women a day does the average person here approach? 30? 20? 5? 1? 0? One a month? One a year? None?
Treuphax, you are a very intense and interesting guy and I would seriously love to sit down for coffee and discuss with you about literature, poetry and many other topics. However, women cannot necessarily handle the intensity of the male brain like another man can. I've seen from many of your posts, that you spend so much time analyzing women from the male perspective and you expect women here to be able to use the same male-type logic and rationale. Of course, in some societies, usually non-Western societies, women can adhere to their traditional roles and will behave in a manner that is much more compatible to the traditional and more natural patriarchal mind that men inherently possess. And, of course, in our modern Western society, the male brain has to be reprogrammed to adapt to the more unnatural social environment that we have created that pretty much goes against the natural order of our biology, but also against how the male/female brains were developed throughout the course of time. However, there is goods and bads to this scenario and we cannot keep fighting the system, but rather just accept it for what it is. In fact, there are many goods to our modern society and the reconstruction of gender roles and the biological rewiring of our minds and bodies.
As one other poster above stated, you really should just start talking about puppies and cats and leave the entire deep world analytical and esoterically themed philosophical discussions for when you know each other better.
Treuphax, I would suggest making several approaches a day and trying different types of approaches. Do not be invasive, clingy, needy, but rather a bit more indifferent, moderately flamboyant and perspicaciously seductive.
Avoid trying to find the ONE woman who you think can help you unravel and unlock all the hidden mysterious of the universe. Female heroines tend to be more of a Hollywood phenomenon. I'm not saying they don't exist, but you will be hard pressed to find one and you may be searching your entire life. There is one man in the MRA world, who uses the term "Unicorn Princess". I admire the label, as that to some degree or other definitely identifies what many gullible men keep chasing after. But, in reality, unicorns do not exist. Real women are emotional, judgmental, discerning and tend to be much more dull and dry than adventurous. Contrary to what we may think, they will not just open their arms to you and admire you without undergoing serious scrutiny and analyzing your entire demeanor. Basically, what we men fantasize in women tend to be the opposite of the reality of what women are. However, it's these male fantasies that keep us interested and women play the game to try to keep these fantasies alive in the male mind to cover up the true, hard and cold reality of what they are.
Of course, many women will have their share of fantasies. Many women dream of the Needy Alpha Male who will be the hero of the movies, but will totally be submissive and obedient to her every whim and command. Sadly, we men are also not so honorable as if we are independent, smart and strong-willed we tend to grow very bored of our fantasy princess quickly, as we see the reality of her humanity. Then we are off on pursuit for the next fantasy princess who most likely doesn't exist. In reality, the Needy Alpha Male does not exist either, just like the Unicorn Princess. When a man is totally at the command and control of a woman, he will end up being the Submissive Beta Male, which is the grim and true reality of many relationships today. Most men will either become submissive and subordinate to the demands and desires of a controlling female or the woman will keep clinging onto an independent man who is self-determined, strong and diligent and will end up being dumped or cheated on by him.
Thank you for the very thoughtful response. I always enjoy RotseCherut's contributions even when they get very strongly opinionated. It's always obvious that he's sincere and genuinely cares about other people rather than writing them off right away. As far as the content these most recent remarks, there is a lot of good advice. I really appreciate it when others share feedback, and you may be right that I may come across unappealing if too intense and analytical. Spot on about keeping early interactions, particularly with women light and easy. While I don't know enough about kittens and puppies to carry on a conversation, I do know what you mean. The points about male relationships and female relationships being intrinsically different is a very good one. One thing I've noticed about male-female romantic relationships in the US, is there is often the expectation that they are the be-all end-all finish-line and that other friendships are supposed to wither in competition. The result is that people often end up expecting too much from a single relationship and after putting all those eggs in one basket, a single partner is unable to fulfill all those social needs and disappointment often results. In some of the other cultures where I've lived, friendships outside of marriage have a greater importance and people seem more fulfilled and happier. Indeed men relate to each other in a completely different way with each other than with women. I mentioned that the best conversations I've had since I've been in Seattle have been with the other old codgers in the Sauna at the gym. We'll talk about the God, philosophy, culture and the world. Of course it's usually all or mostly men at the gym and in their Sauna, but occasionally there will be women too. On those occasions I try to be gracious and engage them in the conversation too. It never works. Either they're just not interested in discussing God, philosophy, culture and the world, or they're concerned that if they join in the conversation that something bad might happen and something might be expected of them that makes them uncomfortable. Whatever we think of Seattle's women, I've been terribly disappointed about how they are anything but "strong and independent" and shrink from so many harmless interactions. Of course the threat level and frequency of harassment in Seattle might just be much higher than in the other places where I've lived justifying a retreat behind these perpetual "***** shields." (I know I'm asking for trouble with this one, but it's a real existing phenomenon, even if it might be justifiable and understandable.)
Finally I'd like to address RotseCherut's first question, how many women do I approach. First I'd like to make it clear that I was having this conversation with this lady as a human being and colleague not as a potential romantic interest. Feminists and many many women often complain that men just need to treat women like human beings. I'm convinced that many if not most women in Seattle treat their dogs better than the men. But if we expand my social objectives to consider trying to get to know women for the purposes of finding a romantic relationship, I could obviously be doing better or trying harder. A fellow I know treats it like a full-time job and spends probably more than 30 hours a week trying to meet women and haggling on the various online dating platforms. Frankly I don't see enough inspiring single women that might be potential good matches to be able to consume that much time or put in that much effort. So in a good week maybe I'll try chatting up 2, 3 or 5 strangers whether at the store or out and about. Usually the conversations go nowhere or it quickly becomes clear that she's not single. I didn't have much invested. Nothing personal, no hard feelings. But the scarcity of single women does mean that I don't get as much practice as I probably need... I'm anything but Mr. Smooth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MondoTime
Any idiot knows that the question was inappropriate if you were judging whether or not to ask it based on the color of one's skin.
As is almost always the case with these blanket social grumbles, it is the author and the author alone whose own poor attitude pre-determined his social fate.
Gawd, AS IF geography has anything to do at all with meeting and mating.
As far as Seattle goes, I very well may be an "idiot." However in no place I've ever lived has asking somebody about where they're from or where they grew up been such a taboo. If this is another on the long list of things we may not discuss, I want out. I'm getting the feeling that from exchanges like this one and several similar others that people don't really want to get to know each other or connect in any substantial way, they view conversation as a contest at best to assert status and power over their interlocutors and to signal membership in some kind of peculiar post-modern philosophical tribe. MondoTime suggests that I treat everybody the same no matter age or appearance... I try but with immigrants and visible non-white minorities I try to use extra caution to avoid hurt feelings, offense and trouble. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. On the other hand, I wonder if I were one of these "immigrants and visible non-white minorities" she would have still felt obliged to sermon me on proper conversation form. No doubt she would have been more tolerant and forgiving...
Perhaps MondoTime might share what the good topics of conversation might be...
Obviously religion, politics and sex are taboo...
But apparently so are personal questions about people's origins, where they're from and their profession...
Talking about any of my latest travels and adventures to get them to share theirs would obviously be seen as bragging and might be in seen as insensitive...
Traffic? Provocation of Cyclist and Motorist Partisans!
Weather? Seriously we don't want to open up that climate thing now?
Literature? Nobody reads the same books anymore, that one's hopeless.
Television? I'm very impressed that you don't have a television!
Food? Do I really dare to go on here and risk offending the many gluten-free vegans among us?
Of course it's not this bad, but we still might need to lighten up about things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
I see. Thanks for reminding me that it was a colleague. It seems that you ran into somewhat of a nut job. Or maybe she's from the NE, where the bluebloods still look down on the Irish. Why you'd extrapolate that to "Seattle women" I have no idea. I don't know anyone like that, nor anyone who would lecture someone, rather than have a pleasant, normal conversation. I find it hard to believe that you run into this with most or many of the women you interact with. I'm sorry that happened, you were just trying to be nice and collegial, but why project it onto all Seattle women, or even anything to do with Seattle at all?
Why do I extrapolate? There are two common threads here; 1 Me and 2 Seattle. Either I've changed since I've moved here, or there is an undeniable real existing cultural phenomenon. If I had one exchange that is turned into a weird status and power competition like that, it might be a single crazy anecdote. A second might be a crazy confirmation bias. By the third and fourth it might also be a crazy epidemic. I'm just afraid that the epidemic is contagious and also making me crazy broken and curmudgeonly.
Treuphax, I can't relate at all to what you're going through and I would just advise that you consider this colleague someone who has her little quirks and go on from there. Do all Seattle women act like that? Until you approach all Seattle women and find out, you'll never know.
As a woman who doesn't live in Seattle but does live in the area, I'd like to explain how I deal with a coworker talking to me. I just talk to them. If they initiated the conversation, I'll follow their topic of conversation until I know them better. Isn't that how people find out what interests and things they have in common and how they make friends?
Over my lifetime, I've learned to speak up if something makes me uncomfortable. So if you are someone I don't know well and you are making a racial joke or putting your hand on my shoulder, I'll probably tell you how I feel. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. If you weren't meaning to make me feel uncomfortable, then no harm, no foul. It doesn't mean I'd quit talking to you, although I might internally question why you were making such a joke or putting your hands on me when I don't know you.
But lecture you? No. Now what someone else would do, I have no idea.
I know how you feel, though. I've had two jobs and two crazy bosses at each one. If I hadn't worked for most of my life, I would have thought I was losing it and wondered if I just couldn't get along with people. But sometimes things happen. And after being able to step back and get a better perspective, it appears I just got stuck with two crazy bosses in a row. No conspiracy, no changing times.
Anyway, you can modify your behavior a bit and see if that helps. But do you really want to change who you are just to keep from getting lectured by people who have a few hangups?
As far as Seattle goes, I very well may be an "idiot." However in no place I've ever lived has asking somebody about where they're from or where they grew up been such a taboo.
Why do I extrapolate? There are two common threads here; 1 Me and 2 Seattle. Either I've changed since I've moved here, or there is an undeniable real existing cultural phenomenon. If I had one exchange that is turned into a weird status and power competition like that, it might be a single crazy anecdote. A second might be a crazy confirmation bias. By the third and fourth it might also be a crazy epidemic. I'm just afraid that the epidemic is contagious and also making me crazy broken and curmudgeonly.
Asking where people are from isn't a taboo in Seattle. I've never heard of that.
You're encountering a crazy epidemic of people reacting badly to being asked where they're from? Why do you ask so many people where they're from? To break the ice, and start a conversation? Why wouldn't you ask first if they're from Seattle, before assuming they're from elsewhere--I'm just wondering. It never occurred to me to ask where anyone was from, nor was I ever asked, while living in Seattle. Have you compared notes with your friends or co-workers to see if they're asking this question of people and getting the same type of response you've gotten? Have you asked the same question in other parts of the country?
IDK, OP, this sounds strange. If anyone were to ask me where I'm from, I'd tell them. Simple. Most reasonable people would, and Seattle is full of reasonable people. Also, I can assure you there's no scarcity of single women in Seattle. If you're chatting up 4 or 5/week, that's not bad. At least you're making some effort. The thing about cold approaches, vs. getting to know women through shared activities, is that you know nothing about their personalities, not to mention their status as single/not single. You say you don't see enough "inspiring" women to approach. But if you're only going for the ones that "inspire" you to talk to them, you could find out that half or more of them aren't a good match personality-wise. (Which seems to be exactly what's happening.... ) You need to cast a wider net, be a little more flexible, get to know women first before you decide whether they "inspire" you enough to ask them out. Because a charming or sweet or brilliant personality is part of the inspiration, is it not? In a way, you're going about it all backwards, if you see what I mean. (Somehow, I'm not holding my breath for you to tell me you see what I mean.)
Anyway, that one co-worker is not a normal person. She has some kind of issue. That's not typical of Seattle or any other place. If you met more women, you'd be able to put an incident like that in perspective and let it roll off your back, but because you're not meeting a lot of women, it looms larger in your experience than it should. Or so it seems.
And btw, if you're talking to 4-ish women/week, but you've only run into 4 or 5 total in your experience who don't like being asked where they're from, why is this even an issue? It's not as if half or even 1/4 of the women you chat with turn into fire-breathing dragons when you ask them where they're from. Why the huge rant?
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) You need to cast a wider net, be a little more flexible, get to know women first before you decide whether they "inspire" you enough to ask them out. Because a charming or sweet or brilliant personality is part of the inspiration, is it not? In a way, you're going about it all backwards, if you see what I mean. (Somehow, I'm not holding my breath for you to tell me you see what I mean.) 
