Adventurous and Sustainable Eating (well, 2011, Alaska)

[MissingAll4Seasons]

I agree -- shelter is primary, and don't expend more calories on food than you'd get from eating it.

But, anyone worth their carbon does not travel without appropriate supplies up here. So, your scenario is not realistic. If you're involved in a small craft crash in the bush and you don't have fire-making tools, some amount of shelter-making supplies, and some amount of water and food then the pilot was an idiot, not from Alaska, and too used to temperate or populated flight paths.

Traveling in Alaska, during any season, without at least minimum survival equipment is Darwinism in action. Much like traveling anywhere in other harsh and/or remote environments around the world -- the Australian Outback, the Mojave (or Gobi or Sahara) Desert, Antarctica, whatever.

Edited to add: The majority of these "crash survival" scenarios and events occur when unprepared outsiders who are unused to the environment get stranded. This is why I stress, over and over, that you need to have local knowledge and prepare accordingly... this holds doubly true if you are going to be outside your normal environment, and exponentially true if you're going to an extreme environment. Skills garnered from one location may not translate to another location successfully.

[Gungnir]

Originally Posted by Woof

That's fine advice, but I was laying out a certain scenario that actually happens occasionally from bush planes crashing.

AS 02.35.110. Emergency Rations and Equipment.

(a) An airman may not make a flight inside the state with an aircraft unless emergency equipment is carried as follows:
(1) the following minimum equipment must be carried during the summer months:

(A) rations for each occupant sufficient to sustain life for one week;
(B) one axe or hatchet;
(C) one first aid kit;
(D) an assortment of tackle such as hooks, flies, lines, and sinkers;
(E) one knife;
(F) fire starter;
(G) one mosquito headnet for each occupant;
(H) two small signaling devices such as colored smoke bombs, railroad fuses, or Very pistol shells, in sealed metal containers;

(2) in addition to the equipment required under (1) of this subsection, the following must be carried as minimum equipment from October 15 to April 1 of each year:

(A) one pair of snowshoes;
(B) one sleeping bag;
(C) one wool blanket or equivalent for each occupant over four.

(b) However, operators of multi-engine aircraft licensed to carry more than 15 passengers need carry only the food, mosquito nets, and signalling equipment at all times other than the period from October 15 to April 1 of each year, when two sleeping bags, and one blanket for every two passengers shall also be carried.
All of the above requirements as to emergency rations and equipment are considered to be minimum requirements which are to remain in full force and effect, except as further safety measures may be from time to time imposed by the department.

So your scenario is invalid in both the primary, and secondary statements. Also if you're flying you normally have some form of luggage that you can add to that minimum; and it is a minimum most experienced bush pilots have more than that minimum, sometimes much more.

[MissingAll4Seasons]

There seems to be a few misconceptions/exaggerations about harvesting wild foods and survival situations, etc.

Firstly, "surviving" in the wild isn't so different than "living" in the wild -- it's not like you can live in a remote location and never ever find yourself in a situation where you need to survive without your stockpile of gear at home... road trips, hunting/fishing, collecting firewood, or hiking.

Secondly, unless the laws of physics have changed, people don't simply get magically spirited away to alternate locations without any prior knowledge or warning. Unless there's some cosmic rip in temporal space randomly transporting people, or the aliens that abducted you put back in the wrong place, you have some advanced warning that you are going to be in a different environment than what you're used to... it's intentional. It's on you to research these areas and determine the proper preparation for traveling through or existing in them, even if it's just driving across town to the grocery store. If you travel without proper supplies for your scenario and you get caught in a bad situation, that's entirely on you. This is why I stress planning & preparation.

Wild harvest is not a new thing for most folks who live rural or remote, but it is a major shift for most urban and suburban folks. It's a valuable skill to learn, but most experts agree that it's critical to long-term survival to learn the local specifics once you grasp general survival skills (mindset being the most important -- because your preparation and survival is all on you). A ruralite who moves from one area to another is really no better off than a urbanite in that area -- they may have a more successful mindset and basic skills, but they don't have any/much local knowledge (as Granny points out).

Eating and surviving in the wild is not horribly difficult if you are familiar with the area, know what to expect and what you're doing... whether you're a full-timer or a day-tripper. It's more difficult than just going to the supermarket or burger joint around the corner, but only because it requires different skills than most people currently have. I can go out my door and come back with the preps for a yummy, nourishing meal because I know what's edible in my yard & forest and I'm prepared to harvest & eat them. Anyone can do this if they have the right mindset and local knowledge.

So, again, anyone can survive and forage in the wild if they chose to, they just need to learn and prepare. Their chances of success or failure are based on their mindset, general survival skill competence, and their local knowledge. Actually anyone's chances of survival in any location or circumstance relies on that... a ruralite thrust into an urban environment would be similarly at a disadvantage without local knowledge.

[Woof]

I'm glad to see that the planes have such good regulations, but nonetheless people do die in Alaska or come to unnecessary trouble, just as with any low population state. Happens even here in northern California and in Oregon. Notice that I didn't say anything like: "the only possible mishap is from bush planes crashing." It's what we call an "example", and it was about a hypothetical situation that's gone far beyond my original intent.

A few months ago I read about some born-and-bred Alaskan guys near Fairbanks who went out hunting on quads. They were lightly dressed, carried no extra clothing or equipment beyond a few cartridges. By the time they'd killed whatever animal it was, it was too dark to recognize the terrain and find their way back. They didn't know how to make a fire without a lighter or matches, so I think they ran the quads much of the very cold night for the engine heat or something like that.

[Woof]

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

There seems to be a few misconceptions/exaggerations about harvesting wild foods and survival situations, etc.

Firstly, "surviving" in the wild isn't so different than "living" in the wild -- it's not like you can live in a remote location and never ever find yourself in a situation where you need to survive without your stockpile of gear at home... road trips, hunting/fishing, collecting firewood, or hiking.

Secondly, unless the laws of physics have changed, people don't simply get magically spirited away to alternate locations without any prior knowledge or warning. Unless there's some cosmic rip in temporal space randomly transporting people, or the aliens that abducted you put back in the wrong place, you have some advanced warning that you are going to be in a different environment than what you're used to... it's intentional. It's on you to research these areas and determine the proper preparation for traveling through or existing in them, even if it's just driving across town to the grocery store. If you travel without proper supplies for your scenario and you get caught in a bad situation, that's entirely on you. This is why I stress planning & preparation.

Wild harvest is not a new thing for most folks who live rural or remote, but it is a major shift for most urban and suburban folks. It's a valuable skill to learn, but most experts agree that it's critical to long-term survival to learn the local specifics once you grasp general survival skills (mindset being the most important -- because your preparation and survival is all on you). A ruralite who moves from one area to another is really no better off than a urbanite in that area -- they may have a more successful mindset and basic skills, but they don't have any/much local knowledge (as Granny points out).

Eating and surviving in the wild is not horribly difficult if you are familiar with the area, know what to expect and what you're doing... whether you're a full-timer or a day-tripper. It's more difficult than just going to the supermarket or burger joint around the corner, but only because it requires different skills than most people currently have. I can go out my door and come back with the preps for a yummy, nourishing meal because I know what's edible in my yard & forest and I'm prepared to harvest & eat them. Anyone can do this if they have the right mindset and local knowledge.

So, again, anyone can survive and forage in the wild if they chose to, they just need to learn and prepare. Their chances of success or failure are based on their mindset, general survival skill competence, and their local knowledge. Actually anyone's chances of survival in any location or circumstance relies on that... a ruralite thrust into an urban environment would be similarly at a disadvantage without local knowledge.

OK, good post.

[RedJacket]

Remember this guy and his first book, Stalking the Wild Asparagus?


‪Euell Gibbons For Grape Nuts (fixed sound)‬‏ - YouTube

[Gungnir]

Originally Posted by Woof

I'm glad to see that the planes have such good regulations, but nonetheless people do die in Alaska or come to unnecessary trouble, just as with any low population state. Happens even here in northern California and in Oregon. Notice that I didn't say anything like: "the only possible mishap is from bush planes crashing." It's what we call an "example", and it was about a hypothetical situation that's gone far beyond my original intent.

Indeed, but an example is supposed to be used to illuminate or help explain some idea or theory. Not provide some hypothetical situation that you will never be involved in, for instance "how could you survive being dropped in the middle of Alaska in just your skivvies" it's a pointless exercise, because if you chose to fly in skivvies with nothing else, and happened to be thrown out or crash somewhere unpopulated. Yes people die in bush plane crashes every year, no it's not like Oregon or California, we have fewer people than either of those places (about the population of Portland OR) and more area (more than Texas, Montana and California combined). But I do see your point.

Originally Posted by Woof

A few months ago I read about some born-and-bred Alaskan guys near Fairbanks who went out hunting on quads. They were lightly dressed, carried no extra clothing or equipment beyond a few cartridges. By the time they'd killed whatever animal it was, it was too dark to recognize the terrain and find their way back. They didn't know how to make a fire without a lighter or matches, so I think they ran the quads much of the very cold night for the engine heat or something like that.

Which is Darwin in action, and I'm not surprised they were from Fairbanks, Fairbanks born and bred is better than Anchorage born and bred, but it's not the same as bush born and bred. There's a close call here, of a shoot on sight policy for people from cities, mainly because they do dumb stuff that damages others.

You say you read this a few months ago, it's strange, because it must be an old news report, most hunting seasons are April through end of September with some lottery and subsistence hunts after then, and in April through September it's normally not dark enough to lose you're way because it's dark especially as most quads have headlights. You'd lose your way because you didn't mark your trail, or record their trail with a GPS, which leads me to believe these people were f-idjits. This is especially true if they had batteries in their quads, gas in their quads, cartridges left from hunting and they couldn't start a fire with any of that. F-Idjits! What more did they need... a big sign with illustrated instructions!?!

This goes back to Missing's Urban/Rural survival differences, your survival is your responsibility not knowing something, or not doing something is your fault. Using an example of someone who is local being stupid does not mean all people who inhabit that area are so stupid, these people were urbanites, in the countryside. The fact that it's news means it's a relatively rare occurrence.

[RedJacket]

Episode 63: Three Farms, One Dinner | The Perennial Plate

[Woof]

Originally Posted by Gungnir

.....Which is Darwin in action, and I'm not surprised they were from Fairbanks, Fairbanks born and bred is better than Anchorage born and bred, but it's not the same as bush born and bred. There's a close call here, of a shoot on sight policy for people from cities, mainly because they do dumb stuff that damages others.

You say you read this a few months ago, it's strange, because it must be an old news report, most hunting seasons are April through end of September with some lottery and subsistence hunts after then, and in April through September it's normally not dark enough to lose you're way because it's dark especially as most quads have headlights. You'd lose your way because you didn't mark your trail, or record their trail with a GPS, which leads me to believe these people were f-idjits. This is especially true if they had batteries in their quads, gas in their quads, cartridges left from hunting and they couldn't start a fire with any of that. F-Idjits! What more did they need... a big sign with illustrated instructions!?!

This goes back to Missing's Urban/Rural survival differences, your survival is your responsibility not knowing something, or not doing something is your fault. Using an example of someone who is local being stupid does not mean all people who inhabit that area are so stupid, these people were urbanites, in the countryside. The fact that it's news means it's a relatively rare occurrence.

I just looked, and it turns out it wasn't news at all, dates back to 2008. In fact I read it here in the Alaska Forum: //www.city-data.com/forum/alask...eople-die.html

[MissingAll4Seasons]

Just read through that post and did some checking -- so Tues prior to that post would have been 9/9/2008 and the sun rise that time of year is about 7am, sun set around 8:30pm with an hour of decent visible daylight on either side of that 6am - 9:30pm. I seriously hope it was the fog that spooked/disoriented those guys because they should have had plenty of daylight to either get back before sundown or get home before lunch Daytime highs had been hovering in the low 60's with nighttime temps in the low 40's for a couple weeks by then. So these dudes were serious idiots to go out tromping in the wilderness completely unprepared, even if they didn't know about the freak weather issues we can have up here in the fall (yes, after Labor Day is fall up here, it can frost or snow at any time). And if hypothermia wasn't enough of a risk, hanging around with a fresh kill in the middle of nowhere during bear fatten season.... OMG