Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I've been engaged in a conversation with my wife this morning where we've talked a lot about self-sufficiency. I say it's necessary for the future. She thinks she would be happier living our modern-ways life, and perhaps not quite so happy living a more primitive, self-sufficient life.
Right now we are only a single-digit number of months away from being able to buy a property big enough to make a go at the self-sufficient life. That's what I'd like to do, but I can't do it with a clear conscience if my wife isn't on board with this idea all the way. She is not, currently. She holds a number of views which would be easily refuted with some research (which she freely admits she doesn't like doing) but the most pressing of all is the feeling that she won't be happy if we switch over to living self-sufficiently.
I have heard people say that they found more happiness in life when they broke free of the modern ways and went back to a more primitive, self-sufficient life. Therefore, I have some questions for all of you who once lived life based upon the "modern system" and transitioned to a now-successful self-sufficient life. (Understand that, to me, "self-sufficient" means that you aren't reliant upon any modern conveniences such as on-the-grid utilities or fossil fuels to survive. As in, if the grid went down and gas/diesel/natural gas/coal became unobtainable, you would still live just fine.)
1) How much money did you have when you made the jump?
2) Are you happier now than you were when you lived in the "modern system"?
3) Why are you happier (or not happier) now?
4) Do you have any advice that I could pass along to my wife, given that you're further down the road than I am?
Why is everything an either/or? Combine the best of both.
I was raised in what is now considered a homesteading or self sufficent lifestyle, Simple, lots of physical labor, always concerned about making a crop or if the predators would kill all your lambs or calves and you would have nothing to sell or eat. Usually the only time I saw other people was during the school year, (I went to a one room school with 6 students, and yes, I rode a horse to school and there was a barn on the grounds, and the school is still in operation today), or during the summer we would go to town once or twice a month for parts or food, but usually went weeks without seeing someone outside of the family.
I have also lived in town with the ready availablity of stores and help if there is a problem like fire or medical emergency.
Both have their benefits, both downsides as well. Personally, I don't like people knowing everything I do and feeling like someone is looking over my shoulder all the time.
I don't like traffic, I don't like city rules and regulations.
Living in the country I could enjoy a sunrise on the way to the field, or watch the clouds come over the mountains while fixing fence.
I loved seeing the wildlife while riding to check on my stock, or sometimes catching a fresh trout for lunch and cooking it over an open fire on the streambank.
It can be rough having to work in all weather all the time exposed to the elements, the animals need fed especially when the mercury falls, and calving season with it's 24 hour a day schedule to avoid loosing your profit for the next year or your food.
No matter what you do, it is a tradeoff. I like knowing how to fix my own vehicles, grow my own food in my garden, raise my own beef, gather wild edibles, hunt each fall to fill my freezer, I like knowing how to build my own home and do repairs, I build furniture, do my own electrical and plumbing, and heat my home with wood I cut and split myself.
Currently I live in a town of about 700 people, (until I can retire), but close to a larger town with medical facilities and emergency services.
I have to go to work each day, but don't spend 16+ hour days trying to stay alive.
You can do both like I do with a property within commuting distance of what your wife wants. You can have your smallholding, raise your garden and stock, go off grid, produce your own heat, build your own home, and she can have the security of emergency services close to hand, socialization, shopping and whatever else she wants.
It doesn't have to be just one way or the other.
Find what you both love, and work to bring it together.
I will be returning to my more self sufficent lifestyle when I retire, but I can use my current jobs to pay for the land and home and equipment I want to have the exact home and situation I want.
I am happier when I am a long way from people, but most folks prefer to see other people and interact with them. If you take that away from them they can become depressed and hard to live with.
Just because self sufficency is your dream doesn't mean it is hers, so find a way for both of you to have what you want and you will both be happy.
Why is everything an either/or? Combine the best of both.
I was raised in what is now considered a homesteading or self sufficent lifestyle, Simple, lots of physical labor, always concerned about making a crop or if the predators would kill all your lambs or calves and you would have nothing to sell or eat. Usually the only time I saw other people was during the school year, (I went to a one room school with 6 students, and yes, I rode a horse to school and there was a barn on the grounds, and the school is still in operation today), or during the summer we would go to town once or twice a month for parts or food, but usually went weeks without seeing someone outside of the family.
I have also lived in town with the ready availablity of stores and help if there is a problem like fire or medical emergency.
Both have their benefits, both downsides as well. Personally, I don't like people knowing everything I do and feeling like someone is looking over my shoulder all the time.
I don't like traffic, I don't like city rules and regulations.
Living in the country I could enjoy a sunrise on the way to the field, or watch the clouds come over the mountains while fixing fence.
I loved seeing the wildlife while riding to check on my stock, or sometimes catching a fresh trout for lunch and cooking it over an open fire on the streambank.
It can be rough having to work in all weather all the time exposed to the elements, the animals need fed especially when the mercury falls, and calving season with it's 24 hour a day schedule to avoid loosing your profit for the next year or your food.
No matter what you do, it is a tradeoff. I like knowing how to fix my own vehicles, grow my own food in my garden, raise my own beef, gather wild edibles, hunt each fall to fill my freezer, I like knowing how to build my own home and do repairs, I build furniture, do my own electrical and plumbing, and heat my home with wood I cut and split myself.
Currently I live in a town of about 700 people, (until I can retire), but close to a larger town with medical facilities and emergency services.
I have to go to work each day, but don't spend 16+ hour days trying to stay alive.
You can do both like I do with a property within commuting distance of what your wife wants. You can have your smallholding, raise your garden and stock, go off grid, produce your own heat, build your own home, and she can have the security of emergency services close to hand, socialization, shopping and whatever else she wants.
It doesn't have to be just one way or the other.
Find what you both love, and work to bring it together.
I will be returning to my more self sufficent lifestyle when I retire, but I can use my current jobs to pay for the land and home and equipment I want to have the exact home and situation I want.
I am happier when I am a long way from people, but most folks prefer to see other people and interact with them. If you take that away from them they can become depressed and hard to live with.
Just because self sufficency is your dream doesn't mean it is hers, so find a way for both of you to have what you want and you will both be happy.
I don't think my wife's concern is proximity of emergency services or socialization. A person can socialize wherever he/she is. If anything, I would imagine that a self-sufficient lifestyle, in the right conditions, would provide even MORE opportunity for socializing.
Her issue is that she doesn't want to give up modern conveniences... or, put more appropriately, she doesn't want to learn to live without them such that we would be perfectly fine in a situation where those conveniences were removed from us.
I have said that I don't mind living with our modern conveniences for as long as it's practical to do so. However, I don't want to be caught in a situation where we are DEPENDENT upon automobile transportation... and then gas goes up to $16 per gallon. (I can hear some people saying "Oh, THAT will never happen!" Oh yeah? Back in 2001 when y'all were filling up at 99 cents per gallon, if someone suggested that the price of gas could multiply by four and become $4.00 per gallon, wouldn't you have considered THAT ludicrous? I know I would have! But now here we are! So what makes it so much more ludicrous to think that it could multiply by four again? Look at what people are charging for gas on Craigslist, in the areas affected by Hurricane Sandy. Look at what certain other countries around the world charge for gas. It has happened before, and IT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN!!!)
I don't want to be caught in a situation where we are DEPENDENT upon on-grid water supply... and then that supply gets rendered unusable by some kind of contamination, chemical warfare, electrical power loss at the supply plant, etc.
I don't want to be caught in a situation where we are DEPENDENT upon some external income stream and then that income stream disappears for any of many reasons (economic disaster, total devaluation of the dollar, a weather occurrence which temporarily or completely disrupts my business operations, etc).
I don't want to be caught in a situation where we are DEPENDENT upon purchasing food and supplies from stores, and then some disaster hits (like Hurricane Sandy), or even looms like a spectre not too far away, and then within hours the stores get bought out of all of their important food items. My parents, who live in New Jersey, told me of what happened in the run-up to the hurricane. Stores sold out of gas cans, plywood, and numerous types of food items. That type of situation is bad enough... but it could get worse. If there's a huge disruption in the supply of petroleum-based motor fuel, such that trucks, trains, ships and airplanes cannot deliver supplies from all around, stores will sell out within 24 hours because people will be clamoring to get theirs... just like an olden-days "run on the bank" where people were clamoring to get their money before the bank ran out of money.
My wife says she doesn't think that'll happen but she doesn't give any reasons why. She has said that she believes what I say and cannot refute it. I believe that she likes to think it won't happen because she doesn't want to consider what'd have to take place in our lives if such a disaster did happen. I've said that you don't want to start preparing after the point where you say "oh crap"... because by that time it's too late. For example, insurance companies stopped writing flood insurance policies for properties in and around New Jersey when it was beyond a certain level of possibility that a hurricane was going to hit. That's not the time when you want to be caught without flood insurance, because you won't be able to get it when you see disaster coming!
But she says "what if it never happens?" I say that it's possible that it could never happen, and in such a scenario, we might just be happier living self-sufficiently than we are right now. After all, when you're dependent upon other people to be able to support your family, you are constantly having to kiss their hind ends so that you don't starve. If you have a job, you have to kiss up to the boss. If you have a business, you have to kiss up to your clients. If you have a business with employees, you have to kiss up to your clients AND the government. And ALMOST NONE of those people actually care about you as a person or as someone who has to support a family. You are a number on a piece of paper. When you're no longer an asset to the company, or when the company's revenues start going down the tubes, you get laid off... too bad if that means you can't support your family all that well. When you're a businessperson, your clients only care about the service you give them... and if they ever decide to stop purchasing your services, they don't think things like "man, if I do this, he won't be able to feed his family as easily"... because they don't care about you. Living self-sufficiently, in my opinion, seems a happier way of living because you're reliant upon yourself and God only. If other people don't support you at all, oh well, you'll still survive because you can make your own food, shelter, and clothing. And if other people DO support you, great... maybe you can support them too... and everyone will be better off.
To me it seems like a lifestyle fairly devoid of worry. There may be "up years" and "down years", but if you always have enough to be able to feed your family, what more do you need?
I've told my wife that if I am to provide for my family, I must provide for them IN ALL SITUATIONS. Not just "I'll be able to provide for my family AS LONG AS gasoline is always reasonably affordable" or "I'll be able to provide for my family AS LONG AS I can always take my Federal Reserve Notes to the supermarket and exchange them for food" or "I'll be able to provide for my family AS LONG AS people still choose to purchase my services". That isn't good enough for me.
So if we're going to do this, I need to be able to convince her that she can be happy in so doing. The situation you described seems good enough. I never said that we have to be totally out in the middle of east no-man's land, far from the nearest semblance of civilization. I'm talking about our own lives here.
Ok, little different definition from what I took from your first post. Being self sufficent so you don't have to depend on municipal services such as water and sewer or power is not difficult. A well and your own septic tank plus a hydro system or generator or even wind or solar for a small holding will provide what you need.
Growing all or most of your own food is also acheivable, it just takes the proper soil, enough water and a long enough growing season with enough space to grow the amount you need.
Proteins from animals can be done in a small area using rabbits, chickens or even ducks, turkeys, geese, goats, pigs or sheep.
Fuel isn't that big of a problem either if you know how to make alcohol or bio diesel which aren't difficult to make, it just takes the base material either grains or potatoes for alcohol or vegetable oil or tallow for diesel. If you don't use a lot, it doesn't take a lot to make what you need.
Unless you have a gold claim or silver claim, or can make products for sale or trade/barter, currency will always be a consideration especially if the FRNs are no longer worth anything.
Personally, I would reccomend learning to blacksmith and buying or building a forge, buying an anvil and the associated equipment and learning to work metal as that is a trade that will always be necessary especially if things go south as people need others who can fix their tools.
Living a more self sufficent livestyle takes a lot of work and learning as you can't specialize, you have to know how to do everything for yourself.
I would reccomend if you haven't done this before, start small and work your way into it. Jumping off the deep end of the pool to learn to swim can be traumitizing for both you and your wife.
Take some classes, learn new skills like gardening or gathering wild edibles, learn about electricity and plumbing, take a class in mechanics so you can take care of your own vehicles and tractors, or learn how to work horses or oxen for your power if you don't want to use any fuel.
Knowing how to preserve food through canning or drying or smoking and how to build a root cellar can save your life in lean times.
Learn to hunt, trap and fish so you can suppliment your diet, learn to butcher meat and how to make leather.
Rudimentary veterinary skills and medical skills can also serve you well to keep yourself and your animals healthy.
Basic carpentry and masonry skill so you can build or repair buildings and your home.
Know which tools you will need for everything and how to use them.
With skills and experience, you will gain security and ease your stress levels, but no life is ever completely without stress of some kind, the focus or cause is the only thing that changes.
It can be a great life with the family working together and brings a closeness that can be lacking in a more urban setting as you depend on each other more. Learning together can bring you closer on your dreams as well.
It can also take a lot of work as families don't always get along and those problems can be worse when you have no place to go to get some space from each other. Teenagers not raised in this lifestyle can find the change especially difficult.
Self sufficency has a very steep and long learning curve, but yes, it is a satisfying way to live and the only way I want to live.
While we aren't quite 100% self-sufficient, we did clear our land, build our cabin, set up our own power system, get heat and water etc etc. Now that the structures are in place, we'll be able to focus more on food production. Anyway, here are my answers (keep in mind that I was the instigator of our backwoods move, not my husband... so this might not help you with your wife):
1) How much money did you have when you made the jump?
We'd paid off the land, 2 years of food storage, enough cash to purchase the materials and tools to build the cabin, and a bit left over for incidentals.
2) Are you happier now than you were when you lived in the "modern system"?
Yes, without a doubt. I was miserable back in civilization trapped in the system.
3) Why are you happier (or not happier) now?
I'd say it's more because we aren't living in close proximity to society, and not because we prefer having limited modern conveniences. For the most part, we don't miss the modern conveniences we don't have too often... you get used to it. The biggest plus for us is that we're no longer slaving our lives away to earn a percentage of what someone else is making on our labor while paying more than it cost them to manufacture it. We no longer sell our lives at wholesale wages while buying what we need at retail prices. We have much more say in how we spend our time and energy; as long as we meet our few external obligations on time, what we do with the rest of our day is completely up to us and we can pretty much do it however when want whenever we want... nobody has us under review anymore.
4) Do you have any advice that I could pass along to my wife, given that you're further down the road than I am?
Have her list the things she absolutely does and doesn't want... if she can identify the things she feels are important (separate from how they're done/obtained today) and why she feels they are important, she may just realize that she won't necessarily be giving anything up, just changing the method and means. Sometimes we get hung up on something because it makes us feel something (safe, secure, comforted, etc)... but the important thing is the feeling, not necessarily the object.
For instance, my DH is a gamer, that's his form of entertainment and relaxation... so, we still have his video games but we no longer have every console platform ever made, the mega-screen TV or elaborate surround sound system. He still gets to game, but on a more efficient system and only when we're generating enough power. I'd love to have pressurized hot water on demand and an automatic dishwasher, but it's really no hardship to boil water on the stove and wash the dished by hand (or eat off paper plates when I can't be bothered).
I had a set back a year ago and so lost a year. Where i am at now it appears i have less and am older with a worse back.
I am fairly happy, but my wife is clinging to HOPE that her art will pay off. I hope so and soon, she is past my due date by one year now and she won't have another. She gets till next harvest. No art moving for dollars then No art for sale, but she can still make art... But she will have to decide to return to the woods or leave me and do paid work to stay here in the world of modern man.
In order for me to stay in the world of man she must earn a income. Something she hasn't done in many years. She is working on it and has been working on it and has put in effort, but she and I disagree on art being anything any one can pay for in this economy.
She goes from greeting cards to full blown Fine art like a photograph to tee shirts and assorted other things like coffee cup art. She is very good too, but i question that anyone who is hungry will buy art.
I use my motorcycle as a gauge. if i can't afford that i can';t afford modern man and his silly world of play money and rules no other creature on Earth has or needs.
I know i can be a cave man... So easy a cave man can do it applies... Now i don't know about modern man.... That learning curve is a killer.
4) Do you have any advice that I could pass along to my wife, given that you're further down the road than I am?
If you're planning a life without modern conveniences you won't be self-sufficient; you'll just be impoverished. Self-sufficiency means being able to live a life unconnected to either the grid or to governmental aid programs. It means earning a living without the need for an employer. It means ether being able to perform day to day tasks or having the money to pay someone else to perform these tasks.
But so many here confuse self-sufficiency with a mean and deprived life, with working long hours at always dreary and sometimes dangerous tasks. That sort of life is anything but self-sufficient. Do you want to be self-sufficient? Fine, then start your own business. Start investing based upon both economic and political realities. You want be off the grid? Why? If you're afraid of power outages get a backup generator with automatic switching. Buy some solar stuff. Get a rebuilt wind pump for your well. Remember windmills. Keep in mind that wind and solar take years to recapture your investment. Forget wind turbines. They break down and require very sophisticated repairs.
Find something positive to tell you wife, e.g., that self-sufficiency leads to a better lifestyle. If it doesn't you'll know you failed. Just remember that money must come first.
Why is everything an either/or? Combine the best of both.
This^. She doesn't have a valid argument if she has those conveniences but you have solar, wind, etc. backup.
You both get something you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
Ok, little different definition from what I took from your first post. Being self sufficent so you don't have to depend on municipal services such as water and sewer or power is not difficult. A well and your own septic tank plus a hydro system or generator or even wind or solar for a small holding will provide what you need.
Growing all or most of your own food is also acheivable, it just takes the proper soil, enough water and a long enough growing season with enough space to grow the amount you need.
Proteins from animals can be done in a small area using rabbits, chickens or even ducks, turkeys, geese, goats, pigs or sheep.
Fuel isn't that big of a problem either if you know how to make alcohol or bio diesel which aren't difficult to make, it just takes the base material either grains or potatoes for alcohol or vegetable oil or tallow for diesel. If you don't use a lot, it doesn't take a lot to make what you need.
Unless you have a gold claim or silver claim, or can make products for sale or trade/barter, currency will always be a consideration especially if the FRNs are no longer worth anything.
Personally, I would reccomend learning to blacksmith and buying or building a forge, buying an anvil and the associated equipment and learning to work metal as that is a trade that will always be necessary especially if things go south as people need others who can fix their tools.
Living a more self sufficent livestyle takes a lot of work and learning as you can't specialize, you have to know how to do everything for yourself.
I would reccomend if you haven't done this before, start small and work your way into it. Jumping off the deep end of the pool to learn to swim can be traumitizing for both you and your wife.
Take some classes, learn new skills like gardening or gathering wild edibles, learn about electricity and plumbing, take a class in mechanics so you can take care of your own vehicles and tractors, or learn how to work horses or oxen for your power if you don't want to use any fuel.
Knowing how to preserve food through canning or drying or smoking and how to build a root cellar can save your life in lean times.
Learn to hunt, trap and fish so you can suppliment your diet, learn to butcher meat and how to make leather.
Rudimentary veterinary skills and medical skills can also serve you well to keep yourself and your animals healthy.
Basic carpentry and masonry skill so you can build or repair buildings and your home.
Know which tools you will need for everything and how to use them.
With skills and experience, you will gain security and ease your stress levels, but no life is ever completely without stress of some kind, the focus or cause is the only thing that changes.
It can be a great life with the family working together and brings a closeness that can be lacking in a more urban setting as you depend on each other more. Learning together can bring you closer on your dreams as well.
It can also take a lot of work as families don't always get along and those problems can be worse when you have no place to go to get some space from each other. Teenagers not raised in this lifestyle can find the change especially difficult.
Self sufficency has a very steep and long learning curve, but yes, it is a satisfying way to live and the only way I want to live.
Good luck
And especially all of this^
Of course if she is not totally on board, you may be stuck doing all of these things by yourself. If you can do that and not become resentful, great. If she feels forced to do these things, she may become resentful. Best case scenario is that she finds she likes it and starts pitching in. She might even become more open to going more primitive. I could do it now, but DH is not ready for that. He may never be which is fine because we are happy with this compromise.
1) How much money did you have when you made the jump?
It really depends on your specific plans. We didn't make a jump, it was a gradual decision and process, we already had a suitable place to do it. It can be done with little if you know exactly what you're doing. I had some knowledge and experience from background so that helped get things rolling. It cost us even more in time than dollars, we are extremely frugal. Following MTS's suggestions above will save you lots of money.
2) Are you happier now than you were when you lived in the "modern system"?
We still live in the "modern system" but are covered if everything goes south today. We are deliriously happy knowing this. Even if for some crazy unpredicatable reason our backup plans fail, I am happy knowing we had these extremely enjoyable times.
3) Why are you happier (or not happier) now?
I wake up happy every single day. Why? Simple and enjoyable lifestyle. I believe that happiness mostly comes from within. If you don't have this in you, removing or keeping modern conveniences won't make you happy, IMO.
I think going with a totally primitive lifestyle solely because something "might" happen is unwise. I think you have to want, really want the lifestyle to make it work. As long as you are OK with knowing you are covered with backup plans, a compromise could work.
Quote:
4) Do you have any advice that I could pass along to my wife, given that you're further down the road than I am?
Have her list the things she absolutely does and doesn't want... if she can identify the things she feels are important (separate from how they're done/obtained today) and why she feels they are important, she may just realize that she won't necessarily be giving anything up, just changing the method and means. Sometimes we get hung up on something because it makes us feel something (safe, secure, comforted, etc)... but the important thing is the feeling, not necessarily the object.
And this^. Something like this is a positive way to approach the topic and get some dialogue going.
I've been engaged in a conversation with my wife this morning where we've talked a lot about self-sufficiency. I say it's necessary for the future. She thinks she would be happier living our modern-ways life, and perhaps not quite so happy living a more primitive, self-sufficient life.
Right now we are only a single-digit number of months away from being able to buy a property big enough to make a go at the self-sufficient life. That's what I'd like to do, but I can't do it with a clear conscience if my wife isn't on board with this idea all the way. She is not, currently. She holds a number of views which would be easily refuted with some research (which she freely admits she doesn't like doing) but the most pressing of all is the feeling that she won't be happy if we switch over to living self-sufficiently.
I have heard people say that they found more happiness in life when they broke free of the modern ways and went back to a more primitive, self-sufficient life. Therefore, I have some questions for all of you who once lived life based upon the "modern system" and transitioned to a now-successful self-sufficient life. (Understand that, to me, "self-sufficient" means that you aren't reliant upon any modern conveniences such as on-the-grid utilities or fossil fuels to survive. As in, if the grid went down and gas/diesel/natural gas/coal became unobtainable, you would still live just fine.)
1) How much money did you have when you made the jump?
2) Are you happier now than you were when you lived in the "modern system"?
3) Why are you happier (or not happier) now?
4) Do you have any advice that I could pass along to my wife, given that you're further down the road than I am?
Thanks in advance!
The vast majority of people would improve their lives immensely if they were debt free. They would not have to leave the city and would be much happier. Being debt free gives you the choice to tell your boss to "shove it", move to another place whenever you feel like it and generally do what you damn well please.
You could even afford to have a paid for little place in the country to escape the city whenever you feel like the noise and lights are too much.
What I tell people who start going down the path you are going is this: make sure the pressure of the rat race (usually inspired by mortgages, car payments and credit card debt) is not pushing you to a knee jerk reaction of "to hell with it, I want to live on $20/day and dig dirt all day - I bet that will be more fun"...
After you are sure it is not a knee jerk reaction you can start looking at ways to improve your current situation slowly. Your wife (or anyone's spouse) being apprehensive about such a move is a good thing - it is easy to get carried away in this stuff. You may end up selling everything, going to the country and realizing that your neighbors are inbreds, you hate manual labor and you were better off with Starbucks close by...
To answer your question: I am very happy where I am at - 1/2 of the way to being self-sufficient. My wife and I are in the same boat though and we have the same idea where we want to be. By the way, our ideas have changed over time and you have to be big enough person to allow for that.
OD
Last edited by ognend; 11-10-2012 at 02:15 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
