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First, I seriously question the (large) infinite multiverse theory as being anything more than a mental exercise that caught the fancy of the media and public. It is in essence a permission giver. "Oh well, I'll do this, because I know that according to the multiverse theory, there HAS TO BE a universe where everything else is the same but I made the other choice." The logic of the concept is juvenile. Think of one of those universes where instead of resigning, Nixon burst out in a rendition of "I Dreamed a Dream" a la Sarah Boyle. Or a universe where Hitler and Goebbels entertained troops with a skit from the Marx Brothers. Both are REQUIRED universes in the infinite universe concept.
As for any boundary, does the dimension of length preclude the dimension of width? Obviously not. Other universes would supposedly exist outside of our dimension set, not adjacent to them.
If the multiverse hypothesis is correct, would that mean our universe has a boundary or edge?
Not necessarily. To have a boundary or edge would imply the universe has some kind of surface. Although the universe is finite, that doesn't necessarily mean it has a boundary or an edge. If anything could be considered as a boundary, it's probably the very moment of the Big Bang itself. When we look out at a distance, regardless of how near or far it is, we are always seeing events that happened in the past, even if it was just a split second ago. Is there an actual edge or boundary of a galaxy? No. It's just that the region where stars become more sparse and the gravitational attraction of the galaxy is weaker, we generally agree that as an edge, even though there really isn't any. Of course, galaxies are products of the universe. Not only does the universe contain all the stuff we see, but is also includes all of space and all of time (space-time). The expansion of the universe is that both space and time are expanding. If there is anything "outside" of the universe, it might be energetic fields (conditions).
The Multiverse is a very divided subject among researchers. Many support it. Many do not. There's over a dozen types of possible Multiverse theories. And many more different types of operations for the Multiverse in each.
Your question can't really be answered yet. Nobody knows, and we're a ways from finding out, if we can at all.
Night Bazaar, beside always seeing things that happened in the past, are we also seeing things that are happening in the present? New galaxies being formed? I realize that, to us, new galaxies being formed would still be "in the past" unless ---- What if they are close enough to us that the "past" is almost the present? Are we seeing any of that?
Everything we see every day is, within seconds "in the past" but there is a limit to what you call in the past. That's here on Earth. What I am trying to ask in my clumsy way is are we seeing new galaxies being formed so close to us that they could almost be call "yesterday" - a few hundred or thousand years instead of a million or billion years back.
Am I making sense? Suddenly I am remembering a big debate years ago about what constitutes the "present". Another topic.
Night Bazaar, beside always seeing things that happened in the past, are we also seeing things that are happening in the present? New galaxies being formed? I realize that, to us, new galaxies being formed would still be "in the past" unless ---- What if they are close enough to us that the "past" is almost the present? Are we seeing any of that?
Everything we see every day is, within seconds "in the past" but there is a limit to what you call in the past. That's here on Earth. What I am trying to ask in my clumsy way is are we seeing new galaxies being formed so close to us that they could almost be call "yesterday" - a few hundred or thousand years instead of a million or billion years back.
Am I making sense? Suddenly I am remembering a big debate years ago about what constitutes the "present". Another topic.
We can't just dismiss what we experience in our everyday lives. It's that experience that we describe as the Present which is happening right now. But when we're observing the Sun, is that what's happening to the Sun right now? The answer to that is no, because it takes about 8 minutes for photons to travel from the surface of the Sun at the speed of light to reach our eyes. That's how far away the Sun is from us. We're seeing the Sun as it was 8 minutes ago even though that's how we're seeing it right now. It has to do with relativity.
The Andromeda galaxy (M-31) is our largest galaxy neighbor and is about 2.5 million light years away from us. The photons from that galaxy that are reaching our eyes right now has been traveling for about 2.5 million years. We're seeing it as it was 2.5 million years ago. If you were in the galaxy of Andromeda, you'd be seeing the Milky Way is it was 2.5 million years ago. If they had a telescope powerful enough to look at the surface of the Earth, they'd see there are no cities anywhere and early hominids are still alive. It'd still be qite a while for Andromeda to wait before seeing any modern Homo sapiens begin to evolve. The Andromeda galaxy is thought to be on a collision course with our Milky Way galaxy in the future. As it gets closer, the photons being emitted from the galaxy won't have to travel as far and the view of it will gradually change so that our peception of now and their perception of now is closer although it still won't be identical. Still, in that sense, the closer an object are to us, the less time it takes for the photons to travel to us. So, yes, the closer things are to each other spatially, the closer both are to sharing a similar Present Time. Still, when it comes to galaxies, even those in local clusters are long way from us. Just the nearest star to us, Proxima Centauri, is about 4.24 light years away (almost 25 trillion miles). That's an awful lot of space between us and it.
Scale also plays a big part in our perceptions. For example, imagine driving down the freeway at 150 mph. It's going to seem really fast. We look out at the Milky Way galaxy and it's rotating at a speed of about 600,000 mph. It hardly seems like it's moving at all but it's because the size of the galaxy is enormously huge compared to our tiny ordinary everyday experiences. It takes about 226 million years for the galaxy to make a single rotation.
As for whether new galaxies forming could be a few hundred or a thousand years ago instead of millions or billions of years back. Some of the most distant galaxies that we can see appear to be very young. But that's because it's taken billions of years for the light at the stage they were in to reach us. We're seeing them as very young, but if we were actually there, we'd see they've probably grown much larger by merging with other galaxies closer to them.
I don't know of any new galaxies near our galaxy, but there are certainly other galaxies around the cosmos that are in different stages of growth, some relatively new. But again those new ones only appear new to us right now (our Present), but again, that's because it takes time for the light to travel the distance to us. So while they may look young to us, they can be much older from their perspective. Hopefully some of this stuff makes a little bit of sense. I've said this before, but I'll say it again. The universe is a truly remarkable and astonishing place, but it's also a really weird place.
Thanks everyone for your responses. I definitely understand, especially with the comparison of galaxy/galaxy to universe/universe. The universe doesn't have to have a defined edge, as though an enclosed box or something to that nature. NightBazaar that is definitely some amazing stuff to think about, that if someone from the Andromeda galaxy had a powerful enough telescope, they would look at earth and see how it was 2 million years ago. Even though we are here right now in the present! (Every time someone mentions the sun being eight minutes away, I always imagine if the sun blew up right now, we wouldn't feel it's effects until eight minutes afterward) Also concerning some thoughts on the multiverse, perhaps if string theory is proven correct, it would perhaps be indirect evidence to multiple universes. Recently scientists discovered gravitational waves I believe? (or was it just the polarization of gravitational waves?) These waves may also be indirect evidence of multiple universes. I guess it's all in the mathematics, and we may never have direct evidence. It would be insane if we do come across such evidence, considering our place within this, to put it lightly, humongous universe.
To be upfront for those who don't know about me, I'm a creationist, a young earth creationist. I almost feel kind of guilty being in this part of the forum. Yet I've come to realize creation science and science are two different things, so I'm not your average creationist. I have some thoughts and hypotheses I'd like to test out concerning creationism. I certainly see the amazing amount of observable evidence that goes against the idea and don't deny them. From my own thoughts, it's actually to be expected yet there are things that would for sure say creationism is out of the question for me. (One would be multicellular life outside this planet)
We can't just dismiss what we experience in our everyday lives. It's that experience that we describe as the Present which is happening right now. But when we're observing the Sun, is that what's happening to the Sun right now? The answer to that is no, because it takes about 8 minutes for photons to travel from the surface of the Sun at the speed of light to reach our eyes. That's how far away the Sun is from us. We're seeing the Sun as it was 8 minutes ago even though that's how we're seeing it right now. It has to do with relativity.
The Andromeda galaxy (M-31) is our largest galaxy neighbor and is about 2.5 million light years away from us. The photons from that galaxy that are reaching our eyes right now has been traveling for about 2.5 million years. We're seeing it as it was 2.5 million years ago. If you were in the galaxy of Andromeda, you'd be seeing the Milky Way is it was 2.5 million years ago. If they had a telescope powerful enough to look at the surface of the Earth, they'd see there are no cities anywhere and early hominids are still alive. It'd still be qite a while for Andromeda to wait before seeing any modern Homo sapiens begin to evolve. The Andromeda galaxy is thought to be on a collision course with our Milky Way galaxy in the future. As it gets closer, the photons being emitted from the galaxy won't have to travel as far and the view of it will gradually change so that our peception of now and their perception of now is closer although it still won't be identical. Still, in that sense, the closer an object are to us, the less time it takes for the photons to travel to us. So, yes, the closer things are to each other spatially, the closer both are to sharing a similar Present Time. Still, when it comes to galaxies, even those in local clusters are long way from us. Just the nearest star to us, Proxima Centauri, is about 4.24 light years away (almost 25 trillion miles). That's an awful lot of space between us and it.
Scale also plays a big part in our perceptions. For example, imagine driving down the freeway at 150 mph. It's going to seem really fast. We look out at the Milky Way galaxy and it's rotating at a speed of about 600,000 mph. It hardly seems like it's moving at all but it's because the size of the galaxy is enormously huge compared to our tiny ordinary everyday experiences. It takes about 226 million years for the galaxy to make a single rotation.
As for whether new galaxies forming could be a few hundred or a thousand years ago instead of millions or billions of years back. Some of the most distant galaxies that we can see appear to be very young. But that's because it's taken billions of years for the light at the stage they were in to reach us. We're seeing them as very young, but if we were actually there, we'd see they've probably grown much larger by merging with other galaxies closer to them.
I don't know of any new galaxies near our galaxy, but there are certainly other galaxies around the cosmos that are in different stages of growth, some relatively new. But again those new ones only appear new to us right now (our Present), but again, that's because it takes time for the light to travel the distance to us. So while they may look young to us, they can be much older from their perspective. Hopefully some of this stuff makes a little bit of sense. I've said this before, but I'll say it again. The universe is a truly remarkable and astonishing place, but it's also a really weird place.
Ah! That puts it in perspective. The nearest we can come to including anything we see out there to the word "present" - and then only by a stretch of the imagination - is totally within our own solar system. Andromeda is definitely "past". That's the picture I was trying to get. Thank you for all the good information. It is indeed a magnificent universe. And I think the best part is actually not knowing the full story. That gives us something to keep wondering about and puzzling over.
Quote from Hevenese: "(Every time someone mentions the sun being eight minutes away, I always imagine if the sun blew up right now, we wouldn't feel it's effects until eight minutes afterward)""
I had never thought of this but It seems fact and it may be more than eight minutes. We do not hear what we see until some little time later. I never thought about feel. So, after eight minutes - if we are watching - we would know the sun had gone dead but we would not yet feel anything? Interesting idea.
About creationism - please hang around! - I have a book somewhere that says and illustrates that a "day" in the Bible is not one of our 24-hour days but a much longer period of time. The writer of the creation story was not being literal. Who knows? Maybe, some day, we'll find that the "days" in Genesis will merge right into the billions of years that scientists talk about.
Just a thought from the overly-imaginative. :-)
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