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This only makes sense if you believe building and maintaining double the amount of infrastructure is cheaper than knocking down old houses that nobody wants to live in. If affordable housing is the problem, it would be cheaper to subsidize housing construction in St. Louis County than the subsidy we're currently paying for St. Charles.
If you and I are not willing to invest in an old house in a high crime area, then we should not expect others to. Besides, infrastructure spending is great for blue collar workers.
What do you mean "closer to everything?" North County isn't essentially the same as St. Chuck and you should feel embarrassed for even suggesting that.
Perhaps not anymore, except for Maryland Heights and "Northwest" County. But see below...
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Originally Posted by FrankMiller
North County is essentially the original St. Charles, and many people in St. Charles have friends and family in North County, so there's a lot of overlap in layout and culture.
I would agree. The similarities are striking for those of us who are familiar with the old North County. Today's St. Charles is essentially the reincarnation of yesterday's North County. The same families, the same businesses, the same socioeconomic and cultural characteristics. Modern St. Charles County was largely built by migrants from North County.
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Originally Posted by FrankMiller
Most of those people couldn't afford to live in St. Charles if they had to bear the full cost of living there. The region and the state are heavily subsidizing people to live there. For example, how many people moved to St. Charles after the Page Ave Ext. was built? How many people are going to abandon it when taxes go up because the sewers need to be replaced in 20 years?
To play Devil's advocate, couldn't this logic be applied anywhere in the metro? In my lifetime, we've spent billions expanding Highway 40, MO 367, I-70, I-44, and I-55 in StL City/County. All of which enabled further sprawl, despite zero population growth in StL County. We've even built a brand-new freeway: MO 141.
With that said, yes, we have overbuilt our system. But I don't think it's been a one-sided affair with St. Charles County. It would have been nice to see some money spent on another metro line, but the state of Missourah will never allow that. That is beyond the control of our regional leadership.
And for the record, St. Charles County paid for a significant share of Page Avenue. They easily passed a dedicated highway tax. It was a smart idea, as all funds must be spent within St. Charles County.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller
If affordable housing is the problem, it would be cheaper to subsidize housing construction in St. Louis County than the subsidy we're currently paying for St. Charles.
Except...StL County is built-out. The only remaining tracts are in the Wildwood and Eureka area, which is further out than much of St. Charles County. The only large tracts near the City are in the Metro East, which is slowly developing as well. The era of new housing, at a reasonable commute, is largely over in the StL metro.
North County is essentially the original St. Charles, and many people in St. Charles have friends and family in North County, so there's a lot of overlap in layout and culture.
Most of those people couldn't afford to live in St. Charles if they had to bear the full cost of living there. The region and the state are heavily subsidizing people to live there. For example, how many people moved to St. Charles after the Page Ave Ext. was built? How many people are going to abandon it when taxes go up because the sewers need to be replaced in 20 years?
How is the "region" and "state"... "subsidizing people to live there"? By building roads?
Should the state force people to live in inner city St. Louis or within some other arbitrary boundary line like St. Louis County?
What is your solution? Who gets to decide where people live? And by what criteria do these wise people make these decisions?
North County is essentially the original St. Charles, and many people in St. Charles have friends and family in North County, so there's a lot of overlap in layout and culture.
You failed to answer how North County is "closer to everything." Whatever the hell that means.
St. Charles is like any other area, there are really nice parts and not so nice parts. When you move here, I recommend you take a trip to Ferguson and get a brew at the Ferguson Brewhouse, a glass of wine at Cork or a nice Italian Dinner at Vincenzo's so you can see what a load of bull you were sold by the media about the town. Yes, Ferguson has nice parts too and most of the rioters were not from Ferguson.
Back to your question though.......St. Charles is basically St. Louis County without diversity and a longer commute or trip to do the major "city" type things i.e. Blues, Cardinals, concerts, trendy restaurants, zoo, art museum, etc., etc.
To play Devil's advocate, couldn't this logic be applied anywhere in the metro? In my lifetime, we've spent billions expanding Highway 40, MO 367, I-70, I-44, and I-55 in StL City/County. All of which enabled further sprawl, despite zero population growth in StL County. We've even built a brand-new freeway: MO 141.
With that said, yes, we have overbuilt our system. But I don't think it's been a one-sided affair with St. Charles County. It would have been nice to see some money spent on another metro line, but the state of Missourah will never allow that. That is beyond the control of our regional leadership.
Except...StL County is built-out. The only remaining tracts are in the Wildwood and Eureka area, which is further out than much of St. Charles County. The only large tracts near the City are in the Metro East, which is slowly developing as well. The era of new housing, at a reasonable commute, is largely over in the StL metro.
I'm not in favor of 141 or a hypothetical South County Connector either, for the same reason. It's easier to reference St. Chuck as the epitome of this problem as a separate political entity, but Chesterfield is basically the same thing. At least as members of the same county, Chesterfield residents bear some portion of the costs of sprawl. And lo and behold, the Chesterfield mayor keeps agitating about seceeding from the county if they're made to help pay for any of the old infrastructure their residents ran away from.
As far as paying for Page Ave Ext, etc., it's not the giant up-front cost that really hurts. It's the tax base being spread across twice the area, maintaining twice the sewers, water lines, roads, etc. When that stuff starts crapping out, people just move further west/south instead of paying to update it. But that only saves the individual costs for those people, not the region, you see? If we don't pay for it in fees, we pay for it in tax dollars. If we don't pay in tax dollars, we pay in increased crime as now-decrepit and outdated neighborhoods are abandoned. It's not a case of "hey somebody wants a new house, what difference does it make where it goes?" Building new houses in new subdivisions costs, and the new homeowners aren't the ones paying for it.
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And for the record, St. Charles County paid for a significant share of Page Avenue. They easily passed a dedicated highway tax. It was a smart idea, as all funds must be spent within St. Charles County.
Yeah, it was smart. In the short-term. In the long term, it's another body-blow to the region.
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Originally Posted by 1grin_g0
If you and I are not willing to invest in an old house in a high crime area, then we should not expect others to. Besides, infrastructure spending is great for blue collar workers.
The high crime areas are only that way because people depopulated it to move to St. Charles. And infrastructure spending we can't afford to actually spend doesn't help anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigproblems
You failed to answer how North County is "closer to everything." Whatever the hell that means.
I'm not in favor of 141 or a hypothetical South County Connector either, for the same reason. It's easier to reference St. Chuck as the epitome of this problem as a separate political entity, but Chesterfield is basically the same thing. At least as members of the same county, Chesterfield residents bear some portion of the costs of sprawl. And lo and behold, the Chesterfield mayor keeps agitating about seceeding from the county if they're made to help pay for any of the old infrastructure their residents ran away from.
As far as paying for Page Ave Ext, etc., it's not the giant up-front cost that really hurts. It's the tax base being spread across twice the area, maintaining twice the sewers, water lines, roads, etc. When that stuff starts crapping out, people just move further west/south instead of paying to update it. But that only saves the individual costs for those people, not the region, you see? If we don't pay for it in fees, we pay for it in tax dollars. If we don't pay in tax dollars, we pay in increased crime as now-decrepit and outdated neighborhoods are abandoned. It's not a case of "hey somebody wants a new house, what difference does it make where it goes?" Building new houses in new subdivisions costs, and the new homeowners aren't the ones paying for it.
I agree, but I don't see a viable solution in today's political climate. Unfortunately, two draconian solutions will combat the problem...
1. Infrastructure will be allowed to decay and eventually be abandoned. This is already occurring in North City and East StL.
2. Taxes will be raised to maintain the infrastructure in politically and economically important areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller
The high crime areas are only that way because people depopulated it to move to St. Charles.
I don't agree. The population of North County has remained stable for decades, yet crime is at an all-time high. The population of mid-county has been in decline for decades, yet crime remains low. Your statement is ignorant to those of use who witnessed the change in our old neighborhoods. Ceteris paribus, depopulation does not cause crime.
High-crime areas, in StL at least, are largely dominated by poor, uneducated blacks and the cultures that are associated with that demographic. Our crime statistics overwhelmingly confirm that. People have legitimate reasons to avoid such areas.
The population of North County has remained stable for decades, yet crime is at an all-time high.
Maybe depopulation was a misleading term. The population amount has remained stable, but it's a different population. As the wealthy residents fled to sprawl westward, they were replaced by a population with fewer resources. Capital flight, in other words. When the population has fewer resources, crime goes up.
Maybe depopulation was a misleading term. The population amount has remained stable, but it's a different population. As the wealthy residents fled to sprawl westward, they were replaced by a population with fewer resources. Capital flight, in other words. When the population has fewer resources, crime goes up.
Not necessarily. I once lived in a poor neighborhood in SW Missouri. Violent crime was almost nonexistent.
But in many cases, yes, crime correlates with poverty. It also correlates with a lot of other things. But poverty is only a vector, not a cause. The cause is deeper. We must ask, why do certain populations remain in perpetual poverty, while others have risen to the top?
In my opinion, it boils down to culture and customs. When inferior cultures begin to overtake a neighborhood, there are legitimate reasons for departure.
The high crime areas are only that way because people depopulated it to move to St. Charles. And infrastructure spending we can't afford to actually spend doesn't help anyone.
Wasn't North County a blue collar area? If the factory shut down and you didn't have a job, what was the purpose in sticking around? The thousands of workers in that situation would have looked for work outside of Missouri. Most of them would have not moved to St. Charles, but out of state. The few residents that were remaining in North County would have wanted out because they could see the writing on the wall. For those that still had a decent job it would have been very tempting to move to St. Charles.
People didn't just wake up one day and decide to leave North County. Bring the jobs back and the people will follow.
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