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I find it hard to understand why local Syracusans would want Mr. Congel to use his own money instead of Citigroup's money or bail-out money (if that was possible) from the federal government. The more money Congel has.... the better it is for the local economy. The more money flowing into Syracuse from the federal government.... the better the local economy.
So why would ANYONE in their right mind not want Citigroup (or the federal gov't) to finance this project in Syracuse?
To a rational person it makes no sense. In order to understand the dullusional world of many syracuse.com posters, you have to think like them. Many of the syracuse.com posters and those on Channel 9's website are poorly educated and have menial jobs. They loathe anyone that is upper middle class to wealthy, physically attractive, college educated, dresses professionally, contributes to the community, drives an import vehicle, and doesn't have a narrow political ideology. If something positive happens they will do anything to frame it in the most negative light. They enjoy bringing people down based on their own inadequacy. Most of all these people hate Syracuse and Central New York and relish when negative events occur such as shootings, homicides, layoffs, and other economic turmoil. I suspect, though have no empirical evidence, that many are downsized factory workers or have some blue collar job that makes them very bitter of people with middle class and above lifestyles. Since they feel they haven't gotton a fair shake, they will do anything to slander this community from making nasty comments about the couple that relocated from Fayetteville to the near West Side to dismissing efforts to revitalize downtown and attract knowledge-based jobs through public-private partnerships. When some positive development occurs, these people will unleash their vitriol with comments like "Syracuse is a sewer of a city" or "what business or person would ever want to move here."
How does this relate to the Carousel Expansion? These Syracuse.com posters living their miserable and unproductive lives have been rooting for this project to fail since day one. Their dislike for Bob Congel I now can understand based on his checkered past and complete incompetence in executing this project. That being said, even if Congel was by all accounts an ethical businessman, didn't request a 30 year of tax break, and was never the subject of controversy he would still be disdained by many because of his wealth.
Most disturbing is that these people would rather their hometown be saddled with an empty one million square foot building than have the "evil" government try to resolve the situation. Many of these people expouse anti-government views. Although I don't like excessive regulation, high taxes, and the mantra that government is the answer, I believe that intervention (on occasion) is necessary to shore up public confidence and protect fragile local economies. These same people decrying government intervention in Syracuse would probably welcome it in their utopian fantasy town they would like to retire to in the South or West.
To a rational person it makes no sense. In order to understand the dullusional world of many syracuse.com posters, you have to think like them. Many of the syracuse.com posters and those on Channel 9's website are poorly educated and have menial jobs. They loathe anyone that is upper middle class to wealthy, physically attractive, college educated, dresses professionally, contributes to the community, drives an import vehicle, and doesn't have a narrow political ideology. If something positive happens they will do anything to frame it in the most negative light. They enjoy bringing people down based on their own inadequacy. Most of all these people hate Syracuse and Central New York and relish when negative events occur such as shootings, homicides, layoffs, and other economic turmoil. I suspect, though have no empirical evidence, that many are downsized factory workers or have some blue collar job that makes them very bitter of people with middle class and above lifestyles. Since they feel they haven't gotton a fair shake, they will do anything to slander this community from making nasty comments about the couple that relocated from Fayetteville to the near West Side to dismissing efforts to revitalize downtown and attract knowledge-based jobs through public-private partnerships. When some positive development occurs, these people will unleash their vitriol with comments like "Syracuse is a sewer of a city" or "what business or person would ever want to move here."
How does this relate to the Carousel Expansion? These Syracuse.com posters living their miserable and unproductive lives have been rooting for this project to fail since day one. Their dislike for Bob Congel I now can understand based on his checkered past and complete incompetence in executing this project. That being said, even if Congel was by all accounts an ethical businessman, didn't request a 30 year of tax break, and was never the subject of controversy he would still be disdained by many because of his wealth.
Most disturbing is that these people would rather their hometown be saddled with an empty one million square foot building than have the "evil" government try to resolve the situation. Many of these people expouse anti-government views. Although I don't like excessive regulation, high taxes, and the mantra that government is the answer, I believe that intervention (on occasion) is necessary to shore up public confidence and protect fragile local economies. These same people decrying government intervention in Syracuse would probably welcome it in their utopian fantasy town they would like to retire to in the South or West.
Bingo! Too freaking true, unfortunately....Seriously, it is sad when people can't put things into proper perspective.
This project is a joke! Seriously it is. Very similar projects were floated about happening to Crossgates Mall and Aviation Mall in the Albany area which Pyramid owns. Both malls need to be completely made over. They look like CRAP.
I was just at Carousel Center a few weeks ago. I haven't been there in at least 5-6 years and wow the place certainly needs a facelift. So many empty store fronts! And you canNOT blame it all on the national economy.
The malls upstate are sad, tired, and worn. Other areas have fabulous malls where I actually enjoy shopping. And even though I am female, I HATE shopping. Hubby has no idea how lucky he is!
To a rational person it makes no sense. In order to understand the dullusional world of many syracuse.com posters, you have to think like them. Many of the syracuse.com posters and those on Channel 9's website are poorly educated and have menial jobs. They loathe anyone that is upper middle class to wealthy, physically attractive, college educated, dresses professionally, contributes to the community, drives an import vehicle, and doesn't have a narrow political ideology. If something positive happens they will do anything to frame it in the most negative light. They enjoy bringing people down based on their own inadequacy. Most of all these people hate Syracuse and Central New York and relish when negative events occur such as shootings, homicides, layoffs, and other economic turmoil. I suspect, though have no empirical evidence, that many are downsized factory workers or have some blue collar job that makes them very bitter of people with middle class and above lifestyles. Since they feel they haven't gotton a fair shake, they will do anything to slander this community from making nasty comments about the couple that relocated from Fayetteville to the near West Side to dismissing efforts to revitalize downtown and attract knowledge-based jobs through public-private partnerships. When some positive development occurs, these people will unleash their vitriol with comments like "Syracuse is a sewer of a city" or "what business or person would ever want to move here."
How does this relate to the Carousel Expansion? These Syracuse.com posters living their miserable and unproductive lives have been rooting for this project to fail since day one. Their dislike for Bob Congel I now can understand based on his checkered past and complete incompetence in executing this project. That being said, even if Congel was by all accounts an ethical businessman, didn't request a 30 year of tax break, and was never the subject of controversy he would still be disdained by many because of his wealth.
Most disturbing is that these people would rather their hometown be saddled with an empty one million square foot building than have the "evil" government try to resolve the situation. Many of these people expouse anti-government views. Although I don't like excessive regulation, high taxes, and the mantra that government is the answer, I believe that intervention (on occasion) is necessary to shore up public confidence and protect fragile local economies. These same people decrying government intervention in Syracuse would probably welcome it in their utopian fantasy town they would like to retire to in the South or West.
Fantastic post!
After seeing a clip on TV of the lawyers for both parties today...Destiny USA and Citigroup....it would surprise me greatly if Destiny USA wins this case! Draw your own conclusions.
After seeing a clip on TV of the lawyers for both parties today...Destiny USA and Citigroup....it would surprise me greatly if Destiny USA wins this case! Draw your own conclusions.
One word:
Connections
It may rest on legal precedents as much or more than on connections. A Citigroup legal spokesman was quoted last week saying that there is no previous instance (at least in NY state - not sure about the nation) in NY state in which a lender has been forced by the court to resume paying money out from a loan when there was a documented and verifiable violation of the loan agreement. Destiny can and probably did argue that the slowdown of the economy was an unforeseen event and can also claim that Citigroup's own financial woes were the reasons payment was stopped. But in a court of law it will boil down to the contract, to case law and to legal precedents.
My hunch is that Destiny will lose. If that's the case then let's all pray that they find other funding sources because at this point the project is too big to fail. We do NOT need an unfinished or completed but unutilized building in this community (or should I say we don't need more of them than we already have).
Maybe I heard wrong, but I remember hearing in the late 90s or around 2000 that top executives at Citigroup stated that they will never open bank branches in the Syracuse market since they do not believe it is an economically viable place in which to invest.
Why would Citigroup invest in Destiny USA, which is in Syracuse, if the above was true?
Maybe I heard wrong, but I remember hearing in the late 90s or around 2000 that top executives at Citigroup stated that they will never open bank branches in the Syracuse market since they do not believe it is an economically viable place in which to invest.
Why would Citigroup invest in Destiny USA, which is in Syracuse, if the above was true?
At one point in time Citi did have some limited banking operations in Syracuse - I actually got my first Syracuse home mortgage through them back in the 1980's. Perhaps we have different concepts on the meaning of "invest" in this context. Citi is involved in this project in two ways (that I know of - given my limited understanding):
1) They are co-underwriters and also the disbursement agent for the $228 million or so Green Bonds but those are federally sanctioned and if I understand correctly - Citi is not on the hook for those if the project fails.
2) Citi issued a $155 million construction loan but required personal guarantees on that loan from the principals of the Destiny Project (Congel, Kenan, Lorenz and a few others). I don't know if personal guarantees are routine on loans of that type or not - perhaps one of you with greater knowledge can comment on that? Does that fact indicate that Citi had some doubts and was covering their a*s? I don't know and don't want to speculate without solid facts.
#1 is just a service Citi performs and gets a fee for - no risk really.
#2 is a loan but with a personal guarantee. There are thousands of pages of documents and - again I stress - I don't know the details.... but Citi did not sign up for and wasn't getting a share of ownership - they were just loaning money.
If a bank loans me money to start a business it could legitimately be said that they're investing in my business but if their loan is insured against any default by me and it's strictly a "loan money get interest and principal back in return" I wouldn't consider them to be "investing" in my business.
More to the point is that even if Citi did or does perceive this to be a region or area in which they don't see real growth opportunities... Pyramid, Destiny and the principals have a proven track record as aggressive and shrewd developers who can get projects built and make them highly profitable. With the right guarantees in place it makes sense that Citi would issue a loan for the project.
why is no one addressing the issues from the first mall? I drove truck on that job and I know my boss had to settle for much less than he was owed. I understand it happened to all the contractors. many didnt even get enough to cover their costs.I would love to hear directly from congel on how he justified that and how he can sleep at night knowing all those people worked without getting paid,some lost their business over that deal. Im sure his lawyers filed all the right papers so it was nice and legal.
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