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Do secondary teachers respect elementary teachers as being as smart and well educated? Do they see elementary as being less intellectually demanding?
Just curious!
Every elementary school teacher I encounter asks, "How do you DO it?" I say the same to them. Each level has its own set of wonderful and unique challenges!
Obviously, smarts are judged on an individual basis, so I won't comment on that, but as for education, in NY it is basically the same for elementary school teachers as it is for secondary. We are ALL required to get our Master's degree within five years of becoming certified. The course-load is comparable, though while I was taking a bunch of literature and advanced grammar courses, an elementary school teacher might have been taking more child-development and psych. classes. The amount of education is equal; it is just in different specialized areas.
I admire elementary school teachers. A room full of 6 year olds is far more intimidating to me than a room full of 16 year olds!
Every elementary school teacher I encounter asks, "How do you DO it?" I say the same to them. Each level has its own set of wonderful and unique challenges!
Obviously, smarts are judged on an individual basis, so I won't comment on that, but as for education, in NY it is basically the same for elementary school teachers as it is for secondary. We are ALL required to get our Master's degree within five years of becoming certified. The course-load is comparable, though while I was taking a bunch of literature and advanced grammar courses, an elementary school teacher might have been taking more child-development and psych. classes. The amount of education is equal; it is just in different specialized areas.
I admire elementary school teachers. A room full of 6 year olds is far more intimidating to me than a room full of 16 year olds!
Aghhh the perfect answer to help understand the question posed by this thread. What you have articulated is one of the key ways that educators earn and convey respect within their ranks. What is respected and establishes a pecking order of success is different from profession to profession. In some it is salary earned. In others it is intellectual propensity displayed. In others it is highest degree and university earned from etc etc etc. We in education value and respect the difficulty of the classroom challenge while other professions don't. Lawyers are often not respected outside of the profession but they don't care and value cases won and income earned. Hedge fund managers and those in the financial sector don't care about being valued and respected by society their bottom line is income earned. People in sales value profit and increased growth etc. We ought not expect respect OUTSIDE of our ranks unless we are willing to adhere to what society values and is willing to convey. That now is performance as measured by student outcomes that are predefined with measurable improvement etc. In other words the same performance quotas that many in the private sector have.
Are you comparing individual income (teachers) with family income? That is a loaded comparison designed to prove a point and not present comparable data for review. With many families being two income families do you double the teacher income or increase it by 75% to assume a family income? What if the teacher is the secondary income provider in the family?
I used median family income because that is what was used in the post I was responding to, not for any other reason. You really can't translate one income to two without more information, yet that is what was done in the post to which I was responding. My point is that in a large state comparing statewide median numbers with the most expensive areas is disingenuous at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP
Readers please review the attached link and form your own conclusions about how underpaid the poster is in Broward County and the validity of his comparison between individual teacher salary and family income. The data is from this site and is year 2003. What was the average salary for a teacher in mid career in 2003. Please don't use the typical union trick of comparing first year salaries for teachers with the average for other professions. https://www.city-data.com/county/Broward_County-FL.html
Estimated median household income in 2007: $52,670 ($41,691 in 1999)
This county: $52,670
Florida: $47,804
Average wage per job in 2003: $35,430
County population in 2003: 1,728,916
Jobs in 2003: 757,810
I am not sure what this proves. Teachers are required to have above average education so one would expect teachers to also have above average wages. That is really not true in Broward (or most other places).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP
In addition it would be helpful if the poster shared with us his degree background and the private industry jobs that training would translate into so we can compare teacher salaries with private sector salaries of equivalent background and training. Remember a teaching degree in Biology may not yield as many major specific courses as a liberal arts degree in.
My training is not typical of a teacher. I can clearly make more money outside teaching than I will make once I start to teach. I have an MBA in Finance in addition to the BA in Music Education that I will be finishing in December. I am going into teaching because I can afford to work for the $38K that I will receive as a new teacher, not because I can't do anything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP
It would appear that a teacher in Broward County is in better shape to feed their family then the typical resident who is paying taxes.
True but the average teacher has more education and training that the typical resident. A better comparison would be between other college graduates, not between a teacher and a retail clerk at Wal Mart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP
From the Broward County Board of Education web site: Interesting Factoids
What's the entry-level and average salary for teachers?
The starting salary for a newly hired Broward public school teacher ranges from $38,500 to $70,000, depending on their experience.
A newly hired teacher is not necessarily a new teacher. Like most districts Broward will give you credit (salarywise) for prior years of teaching. A friend of mine taught in Miami Dade for 22 years. When she was interested in moving to Broward she was offered credit for her 22 years teaching. That is similar to the private sector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP
In-field advanced degrees are compensated as follows, based on the District's 2007/08 Instructional Salary Schedule:
Masters Degree: $3,650
Specialist Degree: $6,800
Doctorate Degree: $8,000
The average starting salary for Broward County teachers is $52,141.
Yes the average starting salary for one person teacher is $52,141 now that includes the highly qualified new teacher with the minimal hire. But if the average first year teacher can't make it on 52K a year without a family that speaks poorly of their financial management skills..
Again, the average newly hired teacher is not necessarily a new teacher. New hires right out of school make $38.5K per year not $52K per year. The $52K also includes other stipends like coaching, admin positions that pay extra, advanced degrees, etc. The young teacher right out of school makes $38.5 K per year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP
Not sure what to do with your life and you are talented bright and hard working? Look at Broward County Florida. I hear the housing prices are a steal these days.
I would not advise a young teacher to move to Broward.
1. The county will be laying off close to 900 teachers in the upcoming year.
2. They will not start at that lofty $52K per year you keep mentioning. A brand new teacher will make $38.5K per year.
3. Even with the depressed housing market the median home price is still in excess of $200K which is unaffordable for someone making $38.5K per year. Median condo price is more attainable at around $85K. But it will be hard to save a 20% downpayment while paying rent here.
4. Most young teachers right out of school are NOT married and need to depend on their own income.
You make a lot of good points and you have shared your personal situation and because of that you are unique in teaching circles. You have an MBA in finance which is highly marketable and well paying. On the other hand you have a teaching degree in music education which is not marketable and high paying in the private sector. You come to teaching with a passion to do something and that makes you special for you are sacrificing income to do so. Most teachers are not. What is a Phys Ed teacher going to do to make 38K out of college etc etc. Elementary and Middle school content educators are usually generalist with minimal specific content training. There is little that a generalist has in content that translates to the private sector and a well paying job. It is usually an entry position to be trained to become something and pays less than a starting teacher. Your situation become unique because you were probably either put on step one or perhaps given minimal credit and put on steps 2-5 because of experience. My guess is that because your background was in finance and your teaching in music education they considered you not to have transferable experience and started you on step one. Thus you are looking at salary from the perspective of being a career changer having earned more in the private sector. Folks with an MBA in finance in this economy are demand for it is your ability to save a company money and to increase their financial efficiencies that is in demand and getting top dollar. Thus your claims are very valid for your personal situation but I would not transfer them to all teachers.
Society clearly values your MBA more than your Music Education when it comes to compensation. Because you have dual degrees you are more marketable than your average colleague. Your feelings are well earned for you truly do have a choice. Believe me I can respect your position and can fully understand your position. My suggestion to you is that you are now in position to build the missing pillar for your retirement foundation. That is retirement pension and health care benefits. Others have gone into teaching at a mid point in their career for that purpose with similar backgrounds. They have their investment leg in place and now are seeking to solidify it with a pension and health care. I am assuming your previous career had you contributing to SS . If not tthen you are now able to build quarters towards that.
Mama Bear, the average teacher has spent a lot of time in education and training and has learned to do what other than teach? That's the problem, what in the private sector is the training marketable for? It is for most a one way highway with little in the way of cross roads to other careers. School systems don't directly make money they cost money. Many tax payers and business leaders don't see our current classrooms as enhancing their ability to make money and pay taxes. So what is the cost for and why should they pay more for a product that isn't in many cases working? Why throw more money at what is deficient and not showing much ability to improve? You have your MBA and a background in finance. Using that background are the taxpayers of Broward County making a wise investment and getting a decent rate of return on their tax dollars? Based on the school systems output and return on investment would you recommend increased or decreased capital investment for infrastructure and salaries?
Many city jobs (at least where I live) offer excellent benefits, the opportunity to earn 3 days off a month and decent pay. I have a couple of family members that currently work for the city as well as those who retired from city jobs. All of them make (or made) more than teachers. Those who retired, did so at the age of 55 just like many teachers do. Let's not forget that none of them were required to get a Master's degree and continue to take course/workshops.
This is not meant to prove that my job is so much harder than other city jobs. My point is that there are other jobs that do require less work, that pay overtime, and have great benefits. It's funny that those jobs don't seem to get bashed all day long.
You make a lot of good points and you have shared your personal situation and because of that you are unique in teaching circles. You have an MBA in finance which is highly marketable and well paying. On the other hand you have a teaching degree in music education which is not marketable and high paying in the private sector. You come to teaching with a passion to do something and that makes you special for you are sacrificing income to do so. Most teachers are not. What is a Phys Ed teacher going to do to make 38K out of college etc etc. Elementary and Middle school content educators are usually generalist with minimal specific content training. .
There are MANY jobs out there that require a college education but not a specific degree. My husband is a lawyer and his paralegals all have college degrees. Their fields of study vary. They all make more than teachers. One of his paralegals is a former English teacher. She makes more as a paralegal than she did as a teacher.
There are MANY other jobs out there that require education, but not specific education. I think you sell an education degree short. The only SPECIFIC job it prepares you for is teaching, but you can get other jobs if you have an education degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP
Your situation become unique because you were probably either put on step one or perhaps given minimal credit and put on steps 2-5 because of experience............Thus your claims are very valid for your personal situation but I would not transfer them to all teachers..
I am not working right now. Nobody has started me anywhere. I am still a student. I am talking about how teachers are hired generally and not transferring anything to anyone.
A newly hired teacher may make $52K per year, but that is not that same salary a FIRST YEAR teacher makes. Newly hired and first year are not the same things. Newly hired teachers may have 20 years experience teaching somewhere else. Not every newly hired teacher will make $52K per year.
New teachers out of school make $38.5K in Broward County. I don't work so I make nothing. I probably will not get a job when I do graduate but if I do I won't be doing it for the fabulous pay of $38.5K per year.
Mama Bear, the average teacher has spent a lot of time in education and training and has learned to do what other than teach? That's the problem, what in the private sector is the training marketable for? It is for most a one way highway with little in the way of cross roads to other careers. School systems don't directly make money they cost money. Many tax payers and business leaders don't see our current classrooms as enhancing their ability to make money and pay taxes. So what is the cost for and why should they pay more for a product that isn't in many cases working? Why throw more money at what is deficient and not showing much ability to improve? You have your MBA and a background in finance. Using that background are the taxpayers of Broward County making a wise investment and getting a decent rate of return on their tax dollars? Based on the school systems output and return on investment would you recommend increased or decreased capital investment for infrastructure and salaries?
I send my kids to private school. That should answer your question.
IMO the reasons the public schools are poor is because they are run poorly, not because teachers are overpaid. They have some pretty ridiculous and wasteful programs here in my area.
I am not a teacher yet. Teachers around here report to work 2 weeks before the school year begins and work 2 weeks after it ends.
I don't know a single district where this is the case, it is not the case in Miami. The teachers usually start 2-3 days before the kids and usually end with the kids.
you will see that there are only 16 states where the median salary for teachers is above the median salary for the state.
I know for a fact some of that information is now wrong. What year is it for? Where was the data taken from?
Also, its complete "back of the napkin" stuff. Why is the average being compared to the median? Why not compare salary + benefits to other industries, how does it compare to other industries, how does it compare to individual median income.
You are citing a website that is really just propaganda, no effort was made to come to a good understanding of teacher salaries. Instead the numbers that looked the best for their position ("teachers get paid bad") were posted. There is not even any citations for god's sake!!
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Originally Posted by Momma_bear
If you look carefully at the larger of the 16 states (PA, FL, NY, OH, MI) I am sure you will find that within those states there are urban areas where the cost of living exceeds the state average by quite a bit.
How the salary relates to the cost of living is not important, its how it relates to salaries in other professions that matters most.
I've lived in PA, the teachers get paid plenty there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear
So here, where I am located, teachers really are poorly paid relative to their level of skill and education.
How does it follow that they are paid poorly relative to their skill and education because their average salary is less than the local median? You'd need to compare their salaries with other people with similar education to know that.
Also at least in the 2000 census the median house hold income in Ft. Lauderdale was $37,000.
Comparing the average teacher salary with the per capita income is going to give you a better idea how a teacher's salary relates to everyone else. Looking at household or family median incomes is inaccurate, it includes large multiple wage households.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear
It really doesn't matter how much time teachers get off in the middle of the school year. They still need to feed their family on what they make. It's not like they can go get another job over winter break. Who is going to hire them for the week they get off in December?
There time off matters, they get a livable wage and the tax payers should not have to pay for their time off. If they want more money they can do something in their free time.
Would you pay more money for a product because their employees got an extra 2 month off each year?
A newly hired teacher may make $52K per year, but that is not that same salary a FIRST YEAR teacher makes. Newly hired and first year are not the same things. Newly hired teachers may have 20 years experience teaching somewhere else. Not every newly hired teacher will make $52K per year.
The distinction is not that great, at least from what I've noticed. If your experience is from another district they rarely give you credit for all of your experience. So, although a teacher with 20 years experience is unlikely to start at the bottom of the pay scale they are also unlikely to be making the same as someone with 20 years experience in that district.
By the way as the other poster has pointed out comparing teacher's average salary to median household incomes is not particularly good, its being rather favorable to the teacher's. I've used it only because its the easiest thing to look up and if the teacher's average salary is close to the household median that is a pretty good indication that the are not "paid poorly", but the opposite is not true. That is, if the teacher's average is significantly less that does not median then they are getting paid poorly, you'd have to dig deeper in the numbers.
Obviously, too there is a good deal of difference between the states. There are states do pay some what poorly in some sense. Incidentally, it seems to be the states where teacher's get paid well that the "teacher's are under paid" myth is most active!!
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