Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Since Monday, one very experienced and tough teacher in my building dealt with the following: One student punched another causing a nose bleed. The puncher called teacher names I won't type when teacher intervened, spat at teacher and other students, puncher was suspended. One girl came in late with a black eye. Admitted stepdad gave it to her, DHS called and came, girl sent home to grandma.
Another boy became very emotional and was continually crying. His mother had been released from prison last week and he and his siblings were back with mom at aunt's house. Kids admitted a year of abuse at the hands of exstepdad who they had been living with. DHS called, came, and removed the kids. Don't ask where dad was, he died in a knife fight last year. All this while teacher should have been giving various state mandated tests. And it's only fifth grade. And there are two more days in the week.
This is what teachers deal with, and is actually a fairly normal week at this particular school.
You share this in a forum and then wonder why people think teachers can't do anything else? Why is this guy still putting up with this if he has choices? When teachers complain all of the time about what they have to put up with it suggests to folks that they don't have much in the ways of alternatives. Hmmmm those who can do and those who can't have little choice and put up with! Shout out about how great the profession is and how it gives you a great foundation for retirement at 62 etc and how you are energized everyday and radiating intellectual energy and have the best job in the world. That will make people go darn thats a great job and profession.
Teachers "put up with it" because of the handful of students who are there to learn, in whose lives they (the teachers) are making a difference, who otherwise might not be as academically successful.
I know teacher bashing is an old sport. However, you never hear much about police bashing with respect to unions, benefits,salary,etc. Why is that? Are they not public employees? Perhaps they get a good bashing as well, but I don't hear much of it.
People complain about other public unions, etc. But in the case of the Police, Firefighters, etc I think there is a good reason you hear less complaining, there is a general belief that these systems are working relatively well and the people deserve what they are getting paid.
On the other hand the education system is not working well, of course, the teachers insist none of it is their fault.
Are you seriously going to try to imply that teachers only get 1 month off a year? Seriously? Anyhow, I looked the information up for Miami. You get around 1 months worth of days off throughout the year (spring break, Christmas etc). For teachers school starts around 8/13 school ends around 6/4. That is over 3 months of time off.
Someone just starting their career would be lucky to get a 2-week vacation.
Regarding the pay. Firstly, nobody is implying teachers are getting a "King ransom". What sort of absurdity is that? Rather, suggesting that teachers are not poorly paid. The median household income in Florida is $48,000, this is households though and includes families etc. Lets say you had a two teacher family, the starting pay would be $76,000 well above the state's median income!
I am not a teacher yet. Teachers around here report to work 2 weeks before the school year begins and work 2 weeks after it ends. They do not work only the days the kids are in school. I would have to ask a current teacher exactly how many days they are expected to work, but I know it is at least a month longer than the school year.
I worked in private industry from the time I was 22 until I was 36 years old. I ALWAYS started with 3 weeks vacation. ALWAYS. By the time I left the investment bank I was working at I had 4 weeks vacation. I was not an investment banker, I was a regular old accountant. 3 weeks to start is pretty standard for PROFESSIONAL jobs.
you will see that there are only 16 states where the median salary for teachers is above the median salary for the state.
If you look carefully at the larger of the 16 states (PA, FL, NY, OH, MI) I am sure you will find that within those states there are urban areas where the cost of living exceeds the state average by quite a bit.
I live in one of those areas. Although the average teacher salary in Broward County (Ft. Lauderdale) is about the same as the state average, the median family income is about $60K in this county (Broward County - Development Management Division (http://www.broward.org/development/affordable.htm - broken link)) not the statewide figure of $50K. So here, where I am located, teachers really are poorly paid relative to their level of skill and education.
It really doesn't matter how much time teachers get off in the middle of the school year. They still need to feed their family on what they make. It's not like they can go get another job over winter break. Who is going to hire them for the week they get off in December?
Look across your district and subjectively think of how many teachers you wouldn't want your kid to have. Please articulate for the readers what you believe accounts for the achievement gaps between sub groups, districts and states? Please offer how you would translate this gap into how the public should view and respect teachers. What is the role and what should be the salary for teachers in schools that are not succeeding regardless of the reason why?
I do agree that there are crappy teachers out there, don't get me wrong, but achievement gaps can not be blaimed soley on public schools. As far as achievement across states, it has more to do with curriculum then it does teacher quality. There is not a national curriculum for any subject across the country, which means that in different states students are learning different things. The testing standards used to measure achievement also differ from state to state, so in many cases you are comparing apples to oranges. There will be differences from state to state, until there is a national test and a national curriculum.....not happening.
The achievement gap across subgroups is a little bit harder to explain. Some of it may be blaimed on public education, and some of it may be attributed to environment. Teachers are avaiblabe to help students 180 days a year, and nine hours a day (no one gets to leave when the bell rings.) So yes teachers are responsible for what goes on in the classroom, but parents and communities need to take responsibility as well. Teachers do not go to their students houses to see that their homework is done, or that someone is reading with them every night. Teachers are not their when the child is born, without proper healthcare or diet. Teachers on not their before the kids start kindergarden, reading to the child and teaching them thier alphabet. Some of the achievement gap starts way before the child gets to public school.
Public eduction is broken, I agree and so does the general public. There are so many dynamics that go into public education, that disrespecting the teachers really does not help. Just because there are a few bad apples, as in any profession, the public can not say I disrespect all teachers and the profession. Teachers are only a small part of it, if people want to be mad they need to be mad at the themselves, their communities, their elected public officials etc. Everything is all intertwined, and you can't fix the big picture without dissecting the parts.
Where I get annoyed is that teaching is thought of this profession that anyone can do. I have a master's degree, I have a degree in Biology, and I did really well at school. I chose to be a teacher because I thought that I could share my passion of science with kids. I didn't choose it because I couldn'd do anything else. I didn't chose it to be yelled at by parents, or to be berated by the public. I chose it to help kids, and that is that. So what someone has a degree in history, that does not mean that they will be a good teacher. Making the education certification programs harder will weed out those that should not be teaching. Having enough good, qualified people will weed out bad teachers......when will that happen?
Actually a GOOD teacher is worth their weight in gold. So many people go into teaching strictly for a paycheck and summers off. They may be very intelligent but are not very effective teachers. There's a huge difference between teaching and just telling students what you know. I had some horrible teachers who were smart and well educated but didn't have that knack for teaching. It's a gift, and not everyone has it. A good teacher has that gift and I wish there were more of them. It's the good teachers that you just know could go out and set the world on fire, but they choose a noble profession and I only wish there were more of them.
Teachers "put up with it" because of the handful of students who are there to learn, in whose lives they (the teachers) are making a difference, who otherwise might not be as academically successful.
Think back to English class and the lesson on connotation and denotation. The words put up with suggest what in the minds of those reading who are not teachers? A positive experience to be valued and sought out or a negative experience to be avoided and if given a choice not experienced?
Hmmmmmm!
We can sometimes be our own worse PR people as a profession.
Look across your district and subjectively think of how many teachers you wouldn't want your kid to have. Please articulate for the readers what you believe accounts for the achievement gaps between sub groups, districts and states? Please offer how you would translate this gap into how the public should view and respect teachers. What is the role and what should be the salary for teachers in schools that are not succeeding regardless of the reason why?
I do agree that there are crappy teachers out there, don't get me wrong, but achievement gaps can not be blaimed soley on public schools. As far as achievement across states, it has more to do with curriculum then it does teacher quality. There is not a national curriculum for any subject across the country, which means that in different states students are learning different things. The testing standards used to measure achievement also differ from state to state, so in many cases you are comparing apples to oranges. There will be differences from state to state, until there is a national test and a national curriculum.....not happening.
The achievement gap across subgroups is a little bit harder to explain. Some of it may be blaimed on public education, and some of it may be attributed to environment. Teachers are avaiblabe to help students 180 days a year, and nine hours a day (no one gets to leave when the bell rings.) So yes teachers are responsible for what goes on in the classroom, but parents and communities need to take responsibility as well. Teachers do not go to their students houses to see that their homework is done, or that someone is reading with them every night. Teachers are not their when the child is born, without proper healthcare or diet. Teachers on not their before the kids start kindergarden, reading to the child and teaching them thier alphabet. Some of the achievement gap starts way before the child gets to public school.
Public eduction is broken, I agree and so does the general public. There are so many dynamics that go into public education, that disrespecting the teachers really does not help. Just because there are a few bad apples, as in any profession, the public can not say I disrespect all teachers and the profession. Teachers are only a small part of it, if people want to be mad they need to be mad at the themselves, their communities, their elected public officials etc. Everything is all intertwined, and you can't fix the big picture without dissecting the parts.
Where I get annoyed is that teaching is thought of this profession that anyone can do. I have a master's degree, I have a degree in Biology, and I did really well at school. I chose to be a teacher because I thought that I could share my passion of science with kids. I didn't choose it because I couldn'd do anything else. I didn't chose it to be yelled at by parents, or to be berated by the public. I chose it to help kids, and that is that. So what someone has a degree in history, that does not mean that they will be a good teacher. Making the education certification programs harder will weed out those that should not be teaching. Having enough good, qualified people will weed out bad teachers......when will that happen?
When the norm coming out of teachers and unions is comparable to the excellent discourse on the problem you just wrote. If what you wrote was the discussion being pushed by teachers and their representatives we would be making great strides in solving the problems. EXCELLENT response.
I am not a teacher yet. Teachers around here report to work 2 weeks before the school year begins and work 2 weeks after it ends. They do not work only the days the kids are in school. I would have to ask a current teacher exactly how many days they are expected to work, but I know it is at least a month longer than the school year.
I worked in private industry from the time I was 22 until I was 36 years old. I ALWAYS started with 3 weeks vacation. ALWAYS. By the time I left the investment bank I was working at I had 4 weeks vacation. I was not an investment banker, I was a regular old accountant. 3 weeks to start is pretty standard for PROFESSIONAL jobs.
you will see that there are only 16 states where the median salary for teachers is above the median salary for the state.
If you look carefully at the larger of the 16 states (PA, FL, NY, OH, MI) I am sure you will find that within those states there are urban areas where the cost of living exceeds the state average by quite a bit.
I live in one of those areas. Although the average teacher salary in Broward County (Ft. Lauderdale) is about the same as the state average, the median family income is about $60K in this county (Broward County - Development Management Division (http://www.broward.org/development/affordable.htm - broken link)) not the statewide figure of $50K. So here, where I am located, teachers really are poorly paid relative to their level of skill and education.
It really doesn't matter how much time teachers get off in the middle of the school year. They still need to feed their family on what they make. It's not like they can go get another job over winter break. Who is going to hire them for the week they get off in December?
Are you comparing individual income (teachers) with family income? That is a loaded comparison designed to prove a point and not present comparable data for review. With many families being two income families do you double the teacher income or increase it by 75% to assume a family income? What if the teacher is the secondary income provider in the family?
Readers please review the attached link and form your own conclusions about how underpaid the poster is in Broward County and the validity of his comparison between individual teacher salary and family income. The data is from this site and is year 2003. What was the average salary for a teacher in mid career in 2003. Please don't use the typical union trick of comparing first year salaries for teachers with the average for other professions. https://www.city-data.com/county/Broward_County-FL.html
Estimated median household income in 2007: $52,670 ($41,691 in 1999)
This county: $52,670
Florida: $47,804
Average wage per job in 2003: $35,430
County population in 2003: 1,728,916
Jobs in 2003: 757,810
In addition it would be helpful if the poster shared with us his degree background and the private industry jobs that training would translate into so we can compare teacher salaries with private sector salaries of equivalent background and training. Remember a teaching degree in Biology may not yield as many major specific courses as a liberal arts degree in.
It would appear that a teacher in Broward County is in better shape to feed their family then the typical resident who is paying taxes.
From the Broward County Board of Education web site: http://www.browardschools.com/about/factoids.htm
What's the entry-level and average salary for teachers?
The starting salary for a newly hired Broward public school teacher ranges from $38,500 to $70,000, depending on their experience.
In-field advanced degrees are compensated as follows, based on the District's 2007/08 Instructional Salary Schedule:
Masters Degree: $3,650
Specialist Degree: $6,800
Doctorate Degree: $8,000
The average starting salary for Broward County teachers is $52,141.
Yes the average starting salary for one person teacher is $52,141 now that includes the highly qualified new teacher with the minimal hire. But if the average first year teacher can't make it on 52K a year without a family that speaks poorly of their financial management skills. Add a working spouse in and the good life is there for the taking and the time off to enjoy it. Marry another teacher and I can tell you life is grand and you can securely retire at age 59 1/2. Even notice how many of the early retirement folks in Money Magazine are teachers? In this economy with pensions in the private sector rapidly disappearing education becomes a great career for a secure financial foundation today and forever. Wow average starting salary of 52K each a young married couple of teachers start out over 100K a year. Plenty of opportunity to put 15% of that away in their 403B right away. In this day of tight credit the security of a job with tenure in education can get you the loan someone else can't. I remember the old days when being in education was worth a few points in getting a home mortgage because of the relative job security. Hmmmm aren't those days back? Not sure what to do with your life and you are talented bright and hard working? Look at Broward County Florida. I hear the housing prices are a steal these days.
Perhaps you missed my post that between my wife and I we retired with close to 75 years in the profession. That includes classroom, administration and yes for my wife 37 years as a Special Education Teacher. Now if that leaves me clueless or honest I will let the readers decide. Even as an administrator my wife and I were able to juggle our schedules to get our kids and other kids to practice etc. Did it mean her being up til 11 at nights working in Special Ed documentation yes. Did it mean me going back to work at night yes. But we did have flexibility and were able to help out the many parents who didn't.
You were probably wise to leave it at that and let others judge the profession from your thoughts.
Time off? That's bull. You're not actually a teacher so you don't realize that we work during the summer. During the actual school year, just because school is over at 3 does not mean the job stops. Grading, working on plans, etc, etc. It's kind of common sense.
Duh when I first started teaching I worked five jobs and made more money from them and bought a house with the additional income. It was independent of my primary teaching income. Summer school was not sought out as a job source during the summer by teachers because many wanted their summers off with their families or to enjoy the pool etc. Those who worked wanted to do something else. Remember for many teachers they are the secondary breadwinner and don't need the summer income. Remember when people take a day off and go to the pool during the summer they know how many teachers are regulars. Our neighbors know how much we do and don't work and no forum bantering is going to convince them otherwise. If you work a lot at your classroom job your neighbors know it and can stroke your ego.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
