Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Are you being deliberately dense, Dave, or just missing the point.
People get stopped when no crime has been committed, there is no description that they match, there is no allegation of a run stop sign or traffic light or speeding. Your cousin was stopped for a likeness to an individual. Not the same thing.
Nobody said everythingis based upon racism by the police, Dave - but your story merely illustrates that overreaction happens - it ignores the reason that there might be such an assumption, even though it was false.
Teachers don't patrol the streets. They teach in classrooms. How much racism goes on in public school classrooms? What does this lesson teach? White people are racist (while excluding the racism that goes on among other races), America is an evil racist country, and if you're a minority then the deck is stacked against you. Seems like they're teaching students to hate their own country as well as sewing the seeds of hatred and racism against white students. And I wondered why so many university professors and students attack military recruiters and ROTC buildings.
Teachers don't patrol the streets. They teach in classrooms. How much racism goes on in public school classrooms? What does this lesson teach? White people are racist (while excluding the racism that goes on among other races), America is an evil racist country, and if you're a minority then the deck is stacked against you. Seems like they're teaching students to hate their own country as well as sewing the seeds of hatred and racism against white students. And I wondered why so many university professors and students attack military recruiters and ROTC buildings.
Yes, teachers are not patrolling the streets.
They are teaching about the world we are in.
For them to fail to teach accurately about that world - both history and present - is racist, classist, etc. Discrimination is not only about race - but race is still one of the greatest areas of discrimination in this country.
If you are a minority, the deck is largely stacked against you. Why do you deny this?
But no, honesty does not require or even suggest "sewing" the seeds of hatred. As for the issue of military recruitment on college campuses and ROTC, it is a very different issue than standards for pre-collegiate education.
Teachers don't patrol the streets. They teach in classrooms. How much racism goes on in public school classrooms? What does this lesson teach? White people are racist (while excluding the racism that goes on among other races), America is an evil racist country, and if you're a minority then the deck is stacked against you. Seems like they're teaching students to hate their own country as well as sewing the seeds of hatred and racism against white students. And I wondered why so many university professors and students attack military recruiters and ROTC buildings.
More than you'd think. Reality is, not everyone has the same opportunities. We are dealt a birthright for better or for worse. While I think we're doing better WRT racism, I do still think there is a white privilidge. Just the other day I was in Walmart (yes I stooped that low ) and on the way out, the security guard checked the cart and bags of the couple in front of me who were hispanic while waving me through. Whenever something like that happens, I think about the class I had in Ed school on racism. Why stop the hispanic couple but not me? Apparently, I don't look like I'm stealing anything.
As a teacher, I try very hard to see affort and not whether I like or dislike a student. I try to be fair but I know life isn't. I know that all things being equal, the white GUY still gets the job and the promotion. All too often when women and minorities are promoted, it's a token promotion just so show they do promote women and minorities. I think racism is getting more subtle but it's still there along with several other isms.
Ever been stopped by the police for driving a car in a certain neighborhood just because you were white?
No? Gee, I'm shocked.
Ever been followed around the store, because the store security assumed you were a likely thief because of the color of your skin?
You weren't?
Do you get sub-par medical care, based on being white?
That never happened to you? I'm shocked!
Were you discriminated against? Sure sounds like it!
Did I learn in school about discrimination of other types than racism? Yes - and deplored it no less. No Irish Need Apply read the signs for some people. The Scholastic Aptitude Test was created, in part, to try to control the percentage of Jews going to Harvard and the like. ("If you're Jewish, why don't you have horns?" I was asked sincerely by a camper.) There have been and remain ample forms of discrimination in this country in addition to white racism.
None of that changes the fact that much this country's early growth rested on the shoulders of its black slaves - and that racism against blacks continues to be a powerful force.
I have been followed around a store for being white. Yes, it works both ways. At one time I went to a high school that was 6% white. Believe me, there was plenty of racism towards the whites. No one cared, though, because you know only white people are racist. Did I have privilege? Well, when I was younger my dad did make a good deal of money. We didn't know it, though, and acted like all the other kids in the inner city that we lived in. After junior high he didn't have the same job. After my parents divorced, my grandparents had to pay our rent because my mom couldn't afford it. My mom deserted me to live with her boyfriend in another state at one point. Stuff happens to white people, too. Most people just don't care because we are the evil whites who hate everyone else.
I haven't been pulled over for being white, but my sister has been pulled over for being young. Where's the outcry for that? When a group of black kids jump a white kid while hurling racial insults why is that not charged as a hate crime? When a white person does anything to someone of another race a hate crime is the first thing people think about. Stop playing the race card and take responsibility for your actions, successes, and failures. Asians have been very discriminated against, yet they remain highly educated.
I haven't been pulled over for being white, but my sister has been pulled over for being young. Where's the outcry for that? When a group of black kids jump a white kid while hurling racial insults why is that not charged as a hate crime?
There is more than a bit of outcry over how youth is treated, though I gather you have missed it. No argument from me that kids are treated as if they were not citizens. (Including taxation without representation, ironically enough.)
And hate crimes go in both directions - but you seem to miss that, too. It is not just whites being arrested for crimes against blacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13
When a white person does anything to someone of another race a hate crime is the first thing people think about. Stop playing the race card and take responsibility for your actions, successes, and failures. Asians have been very discriminated against, yet they remain highly educated.
Oh yes, all those Asians brought as slaves to America against their will!
Boy, that sure proves your point.
And "they" don't remain highly educated. Your stereotypes are showing.
Taking 'responsibility' is what I am suggesting needs to happen - but not in the one-sided way you are suggesting.
Teachers don't patrol the streets. They teach in classrooms. How much racism goes on in public school classrooms? What does this lesson teach? White people are racist (while excluding the racism that goes on among other races), America is an evil racist country, and if you're a minority then the deck is stacked against you. Seems like they're teaching students to hate their own country as well as sewing the seeds of hatred and racism against white students.
Research evidence shows that most people have biases against minority groups. Bias does not necessarily predict action, or even a hateful level of racism. These biases are so entrenched in our culture that even minority groups exhibit them. For example, in a famous experiment, black children found a white baby doll more attractive and wanted to play with it more than a black doll, despite the fact that the white and black dolls' features were identical. For more information, view the Good Morning America synopsis of the landmark experiment and the follow-up experiment conducted earlier this year: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=7213714&page=1
In another controlled experiment, HR recruiters were contaced and asked about their recruiting goals for minority job applicants. The recruiters largely expressed an earnest interest in increasing the diversity of their companies. Researchers followed up these surveys by sending out resumes to the same companies that had been surveyed. The job candidates' credentials were identical, but the names on the resumes varied. Some resumes included Anglo-European names and other applicants' resumes had "black sounding" names. There were fewer call backs for the applicants with black names. Despite the fact that the recruiters consciously wanted to increase the number of black hires, they had an unconscious "mind bug" that worked against their stated goal.
These documented cases of bias do not to me paint a picture that shows
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave
America is an evil racist country.
I think of us more as a country with a long history of hurting minority groups intentionally and unintentionally. It takes a long time to slow down our actions, examine our thinking, and turn around attiudes. But with love and patience, it can happen. However, unmerited suspicion about productive anti-bias programs will not get the job done.
There was a great article in the Washington Post on January 23, 2005 on the topic of bias. Unfortunately, copyright prevents me from sharing it here. I too used to think that most anti-bias programs were of limited value, but this article and further study helped me to change my mind. If you are willing to pay a fee, it's interesting to see. Another good (and free) resource is the Project Implicit website at https://implicit.harvard.edu .
And everyone who is white grew up with special favors given to them solely because of their race. Gee, I wish I'd received those special favors.
First of all, most diversity programs for teachers do include all minority groups. Socio-economic diversity is addressed, as it is quite important. As well, other minority groups are discussed. Religion, sexual orientation, and gender are all examined.
The idea of white privilege does not imply that one receives favors. However, there are indignities that blacks in America suffer that whites might not suffer at all or suffer at a far less often.
For example:
Black children, particularly boys, are more likely to be labeled as having behavior problems in schools. (This happens even in affluent private schools, regardless of the students' socio-economic status.) If you are the parent of a black child and you are called in for a parent-teacher conference, you might weigh in your mind whether your child really has a problem or he is being picked on because of his race.
Racial minorities are still not pictured as often in learning materials as white people. Even teachers who use magazine pictures for activities are hard pressed to find many examples of minorties in the media. Just look through the advertisements in the weekend paper and try to find a significant number of positive representations of non-whites. It is a "privilege" of sorts to turn on the TV, watch a movie, or read a magazine and see people who look like you.
A white person can "do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to [his] race" (Paula S. Rothenberg, White Privilege, p. 125)
If you work for an affirmative action employer, you don't have to wonder as a white person whether you were hired for your abilities or accomplishments or because of your race. (Paula S. Rothenberg, White Privilege, p. 125)
Many school districts have rejected ability grouping in math and reading because black students were disproportionately placed in the lowest achieving groups regardless of actual ability.
Sailordave, if it makes you feel any better, I was required to read both White Privilege as well as Class Matters for my required diversity in education course. And in discussing race, we talked about how racism, bias, and white privilege have hurt whites. For one, think about how strongly you feel about this thread. You, like I, have probably had some negative experiences around conversations about race.
However, even a poor white person has more social advantages in this country more of the time than a black person of equivalent social class. These advantages don't feel like privilege, but the reality is that without asking for it, without necessarily meriting it, whites are treated better.
I could say much more here, but my reply has gone on too long. The person who can explain the issue far better than I can is Tim Wise (a white man) who lectures on white privilege. If you have ten minutes to spare, I highly recommend watching him on YouTube:
There is more than a bit of outcry over how youth is treated, though I gather you have missed it. No argument from me that kids are treated as if they were not citizens. (Including taxation without representation, ironically enough.)
And hate crimes go in both directions - but you seem to miss that, too. It is not just whites being arrested for crimes against blacks.
Oh yes, all those Asians brought as slaves to America against their will!
Boy, that sure proves your point.
And "they" don't remain highly educated. Your stereotypes are showing.
Taking 'responsibility' is what I am suggesting needs to happen - but not in the one-sided way you are suggesting.
Being a slave is not the only way one can be discriminated against by the institution. I guess you missed that point. Why put they in quotes? It is a group, and as such it is referred to as they. My stereotypes are not showing. The kids who went to college from my high schools were overwhelmingly Asian. Hate crimes do not generally go in both directions. You are crazy if you think they do. A couple years ago a big group of black and Hispanic kids jumped a couple white kids. They were very badly beaten. I don't think it was ever charged as a hate crime even though the kids were yelling racial insults about the white kids the entire time. Everyone knows it was because they were white. It happens all the time. And, I have not heard an outcry as to how youth are treated. I do agree with the taxation without representation thing, but everyone else thinks I'm insane. My ancestors were kicked out of their countries against their wills. It wasn't because of race, but it was because of religion. Should I cry about that and expect favors from everyone?
Being a slave is not the only way one can be discriminated against by the institution. I guess you missed that point. Why put they in quotes? It is a group, and as such it is referred to as they. My stereotypes are not showing. The kids who went to college from my high schools were overwhelmingly Asian. Hate crimes do not generally go in both directions. You are crazy if you think they do. A couple years ago a big group of black and Hispanic kids jumped a couple white kids. They were very badly beaten. I don't think it was ever charged as a hate crime even though the kids were yelling racial insults about the white kids the entire time. Everyone knows it was because they were white. It happens all the time. And, I have not heard an outcry as to how youth are treated. I do agree with the taxation without representation thing, but everyone else thinks I'm insane. My ancestors were kicked out of their countries against their wills. It wasn't because of race, but it was because of religion. Should I cry about that and expect favors from everyone?
I put it in quotes because "Asians" may be a group, but individuals have not remained or failed to remain highly educated. You are caught up in a stereotype that is damaging for all that it is positive.
2004 data for hate crimes from the Uniform Crime Reporting system:
Know Offenders
Total: 7,145
Known Offenders' race
White 4,327
Black 1,408
American Indian/Alaskan Native 48
Asian/Pacific Islander 70
Multiple Races, Group 367
Yes, blacks are found guilty of hate crimes. That you don't know about it does not make it so.
They were not there to deal with everything wrong with schools. However, I think your statement - bolded above - illustrates your agenda pretty well. On one hand, you ignore the fact that they deal with some of your listed concerns, while on the other hand you decide for everybody how much of a problem each issue is.
I find your need to point the finger at racism by the various non-whites to be laughable; not because there is none, but because none of it was codified at the very root of this country. We have had federal laws or Supreme Court decisions that:
Blacks counted as only a fraction of a person for the purposes of the census
If a black had been property, his getting to a free state was not enough to make him free
If a white woman married an Asian, she lost her citizenship
Permitted anybody born inside the borders of the U.S. to be at birth a U.S. citizen, unless born to a foreign government employee of a certain type - or born to an Indian.
White racism, as practiced by this country has had a far more pervasive impact on the development of this country than racism within or between any of those other groups has, by a wide margin.
******
So, the emotional trauma of each of those groups (which makes no sense as you wrote it, but whatever) is both far more severe and far more common today than racism in schools is, according to you...
Do you have any support for your opinions on either severity or frequency?
OMG! REALLY!? I am sorry but I am NOT racist to say that only black people endured slavery and that it was harshest for them and I will NOT say that blacks are the only ones who suffered in our country at the hands of white people. I say this with a strong mix of blood in myself and even stronger mix in my children. Black slavery was not the root of the beginnings of this nation. Slavery in general was yes. IN FACT, slavery was not racism at all to begin with. Slavery in our country was not set on white againts black racism. White agianst black racism in America was a by product of slavery but those feelings were as stong back then against Native Americans and women who faught for equal rights. People hate hate those who they percieve as challenging their way of life. Let us look at a bit of history.....
First...where did slavery start? In the arab countries where goods were traded back and forth for slaves. The first slaves to be traded were muslim and christian. The christians would trade goods to obtain muslim slaves and the muslims would do likewise to obtain christian slaves. It was the arabs who began to trade with Africans to get black slaves. During the 8th and 9th centuries, slaves were mostly were slavic Eastern Europeans. When Christ was born, 3/4 of the population of Athens were slaves.
Quote:
Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.
Quote:
Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.
Before "white people" came to America they all lived in Europe. If you look at the history during the hundred years prior to coming to America to the hundred years after, you will find out that slavery was alive and well in Europe long before we did it in America. Who were the white man's slaves back then? White people had white slaves. IN FACT, when blacks slavery first started up, the black slaves cost more than the white ones so they were put in better positions than the white slaves. Up to one half of all the people who lived in the first colonies of our country were white slaves.
But lets not get to that part yet....When we finally did first arrive in America, we found that slavery was already alive and well with the natives. They captured and enslaved members from other tribes and enslaved each other. Then it got a little tougher. Christopher Columbus himself told the royalty they worked for that they could get as many free slaves as they wanted and brought back some Native America's as gifts and were of course immediantly used as slaves.
Quote:
Slavery was widely practiced by the tribes of the American Indians long before Columbus set foot on the shores of the New World. Ethiopia had slavery until 1942, Saudi Arabia until 1962, Peru until 1968, India until 1976 and Mauritania until 1980. What is also seldom remembered is that many black Americans in the 19th Century owned slaves. For example, according to the United States census of 1830, in just the one town of Charleston, South Carolina, 407 black Americans owned slaves themselves.
MEANWHILE, in Africa, the African people had slavery for a very long time. They did the same thing as the Native Americans, enslaving rival tribe members. Things were tough for them and they were "blessed" to suddenly be discovered by Europeans who also thrived through slavery and they were willing to trade them for as many slaves as they could cram onto their boats, which made their thriving trade business explode.
By the time black slaves made it to America, we had already had Native American and white slaves. They were more expensive to start with, and even got the safest jobs as to have a lower death rate than the white slaves because they did cost more.
Quote:
Olmsted inquired about this to a shipworker. "Oh," said the worker, "the n***ers are worth too much to be risked here; if the Paddies are knocked overboard or get their backs broke, nobody loses anything."
Of course, there were the children too.
Quote:
Tens of thousands of these White slaves were kidnapped children. In fact the very origin of the word kidnapped is kid-nabbed, the stealing of White children for enslavement...
According to the English Dictionary of the Underworld, under the heading kidnapper is the following definition: "A stealer of human beings, esp. of children; originally for exportation to the plantations of North America."
But then, the revolutions started happening in Europe where the white slaves were fighting for their rights and many escaped to come to America to free themselves of their bonds, to prosper on their own...this we call the real American dream, to overcome your born into slavery heritage, though many people who escaped realized life wasn't all peachy here either. Many people signed onto what seemed to good to be true. Some rich and important person in America was going to PAY for their voyage for exchange for so many years of servitude, only to find their contracts broken and forced to do their master's bidding for the remainder of their lives. In actuality, those who white slaves had harder lives than then most of the black slaves in the south. They compared the white slavery conditions to a concentration camp. But as time went on, people lent sympathetic hearts to the white slaves and that diminished in time.
Even when that happened, some called for the end of all slavery in Europe, regardless of race, but those in power did not want to give up slavery. They were sick of the costs it took to try and deal with the white slaves who revolted and did their best to convince everyone that those Native American slaves and African slaves were less human then they were. Even with these facts, 9/10ths of all the white were not in servitude but were owned right out, being sold on blocks, seperating husbands and wives and children from their mothers. The laws of Virginia at the time support this with the the law that white slaves were enslaved forever.
America now has been having some bloody wars by Native Americans and are finding that these tribes will go to quite brutal means to get back their enslaved breathren. The rich people were getting scared. The white women were terrified of what could happen to them if they owned Native American slaves and they begged their husbands to get European people, the ones I meantioned above that they would pay for their voyage in return for their servitude, or black slaves. Their children's lives were at stake. The American governement seemed to agree and started forcing these people onto reservations and dictating how much land they were allowed. They signed treaties to get them to stop fighting with the European people. Some of the other things that have occured was the fact that we had so many "Mexicans" across the southern part of the contintenal US and we forced them into Mexico and took their land...which today now have come back to take and we call them illegal immigrants and treat them as though they are less than we are.
But wait, it gets better. There were free BLACK slave masters as well in America and GUESS WHAT! They, on average owned more black slaves than those white slave masters. In fact, a quarter of them owned 10 or more while the average white slave owner had 1.4 slaves.
Now, we must not forget those with but a drop of African blood in their blood. Beautiful 50/50 mixed slaves would be bought for high prices, obviously for the pleasure of her master. She in turn would born a child that was 75/25 mixed and even lighter who would in turn sell for more than her mother and purchased for the same reasons. She in turn would turn have her master's child. Many, many white children who very much looked white in all aspects were sold as slaves for hainv but a drop of African blood in their veins, one being recorded to have 1/64th African blood in her. Slaves were sold for a few hundred dollars each usually but here is a historical account of a white slave in New Orleans:
Quote:
During his visit to New Orleans, Reverend Philo Tower attended a slave auction and observed a young woman who was "one of the most beautiful, I think, I ever saw, aged from sixteen to twenty. Though thinly and cheaply dressed, none could be insensible to her beauty. She was much whiter than many, nay, than most of the Anglo-Saxon ladies; of medium size, well developed, beautiful black hair, black and sparkling eyes that pierced wherever they darted....rudely drawing the covering from her neck and shoulders, [the auctioneer] exhibited a bust as plump and purely white as the snow-tinged image of Venus." She was sold for two thousand dollars.
But among all this, Africans, Europeans and Native Americans were not the only slaves in America. Little Chinese girls were bought and sold just as well. But of course, they were not placed into hard labor to the extent of the other races. They were bought and sold as the lastest and greatest sex toys of their time. I know that many other slaves from other races were forced into "sexual duties" as well but no other race was sold as strictly so.
By the time slavery was abolished in America, there were far more black slaves in Africa (with black slave masters) than were in America.
Slavery, dear, is not a problem just reserved for African Americans. It was a mindset and those who believed that they had a divine right to own slaves were not racist but would rather take the cheapest slaves available regardless of their skin color, the strongest regardless of their skin color, and the most beautiful often because of their skin color. Eventually, it became a race thing as those who had that mindset did whatever it took to continue having slaves and used the old excuse that those without white skin were less human. The only reason that Africans were the ones to eventually be kept as the only slaves was the fact that they had no idea where to go on this land. They had no connection like the Native Americans had where they had something to go to. They did not have their rights being faught for in Europe, which if you remember, they "owned" America at the time of white slavery.
SO let us look at history and pretend for a moment that instead of moving to the America's like we did, we did this to Africa and had brought in Native Americans for slaves. White slavery and black slavery would have ended first and Native American slavery would have endured longer as those Native Americans would not have had relationships with tribes from a 100 mile radius as they did had the tribes back in America.
Votes being considered half of a vote was not exclusive to black people but it was an issue that Native Americans, poor Europeans that had moved to America, especially those who were of slave families which was often called servitude, and all white women had to fight for and every single one had to face the same problems that those who faught for black rights. I do not discount that there was much striving among black American's, I do however, refuse to ignore the entirety of the issue. I am pointing out that black slaves owned by whites in America and all that history that focuses on this only covers a very short amount of time in history and that those who are black also had slaves of their own kind on our land.
What makes me most angry of all is that slavery is alive and well in China and we fund it, allow those slaves to make us crap that we eagerly buy every single day without a single pang of guilt. So why do we bother ourselves getting all huffy about history when we have problems we should be handling ourselves today? Some may speak high on their morals but in reality refuse to acknowledge their contribution to it continuing.
Last edited by flik_becky; 12-01-2009 at 10:36 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) and on the way out, the security guard checked the cart and bags of the couple in front of me who were hispanic while waving me through. Whenever something like that happens, I think about the class I had in Ed school on racism. Why stop the hispanic couple but not me? Apparently, I don't look like I'm stealing anything. 
