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Started a new thread on this so as not to derail the current Tesla and LEAF threads.
A couple of forum members have been pounding their chest about the reliability and cheaper cost of EV drivetrains vs ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles.
This potential drivetrain problem has significant negative ramifications for Tesla’s profitability due to the expense of repairs performed under warranty as well as future liabilities incurred under the company’s Resale Value Guarantee” program. (The resale issue is likely to occur because as word of the problem spreads, secondary buyers may refuse to pay original owners Tesla’s guaranteed price of approximately 48% of the initial cost of a three year-old car that may need a $15,000 repair– or multiple $15,000 repairs– at any time, thereby forcing Tesla to make up the difference.)
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I really do like Tesla's commitment to keep resale values high - this is something else I had not heard of before (mainly because I didn't bother to follow their progress in the past). They call it the “Resale Value Guarantee” program.
I normally never read MotorTrend or Edmond's, so this was certainly interesting.
MotorTrend talks about rapid rear tire wear, and why the rear tires are wearing so fast. Seems a lot of the issue has to do with the regenerative braking.
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"There was never a dull moment with our Model S, and while it wasn't my decision to sell it, I can understand why it had to go. First, we've already learned the lessons from this car. It is an impressive technological achievement, but Tesla needs to iron out its quality problems."
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Here is the meat of the various drivetrain replacement articles:
"If you're keeping score, our Model S is now on its third drive unit: the one that came with the car, the one that was replaced in November, and this latest one. And that wasn't the only thing that was replaced on this service visit.
After the power unit was replaced, the Model S needed a four-wheel alignment. That's because the rear subframe must be removed to extract the power unit.
The service center also replaced the 12-volt battery, along with providing new battery terminals and a battery clamp strap."
I think you should have posted this in Tesla thread. It matches the general direction of that conversation.
I am curious, how much longer Musk can keep pumping this project with his personal money and loans? Esp now that he's planning a space flight, or something? Is the world really so much susceptible to BIG BS to keep funding it?
First, in general, the inherent reliability and long life of electric drive trains is obvious and logical... one moving part, a rotor, in an electric AC motor vs. more than 100 parts, many of them moving, some of them reciprocating, in an ICE motor. One gear in the EV transmission vs. how many in an ICE automatic transmission? And in practice there are working electric motors in use all over the world that are more than 100 years old still powering street cars and mountain railroads and aerial trams, with even DC motors that use commutator brushes requiring minimal maintenance compared to fuel burners.
Second, in this specific case, it's a brand new car design, based on nothing earlier, subject to the usual entirely new car design shakeouts magnified by the intense media and internet attention this revolutionary car is getting. But the real news to me... seeing the glass differently... is that 1. the warranty is so good that problems are simply getting fixed without charge, sometimes proactively, before the customer even knows there is a problem. And they've retroactively ADDED several things to what their warranty covers, based on user experience. Who else does that? 2. Replacing the entire drivetrain is simple enough that it can be done overnight.
And most significantly to me, the overall customer satisfaction rating is quite high, more than a year into the program. My buddy in the Silicon Valley who has a half dozen neighbors who own Tesla S cars says they all still own them, all still love them, and now a co-worker has one too. Resale values are high too, and are guaranteed if you use their financing. Who else does that?
Is everybody happy with everything? No, of course not. It's just a fact of human nature that some people are never happy, and some always find something to complain about and focus on it, and there absolutely have been several reported issues that have been difficult for Tesla to resolve. But on average, customer satisfaction is very high. Why do you suppose some non-owners are so eager to knock it?
It's definitely a growing pain for Tesla, as a new auto manufacturer. But GM resale values haven't been hurt at all by the record year of recalls. So I wouldn't be too concerned about the resale value of a Tesla in the near future. With still less than 50,000 of them on the US roads, retaining value won't be a very difficult proposition. Most of Tesla's current warranty expense is a result of brand new vehicles that are in their first model year being on the road and learning what kinks they had in them. Warranty cost will decrease for year 2 of the model. When you build a machine with hundreds of thousands of parts, there are going to be quality control issues.
If/when I get a Tesla, I'll probably avoid lots of the added options, especially the sunroof, until they are a more mature company. My 2005 Acura sunroof had issues under warranty. now it's almost 9 years old, and squeaks a little. My Acura also had a well known issue into model year 3 with the driver seat squeaking. You could bring it into the dealer for a fix, but it would start again eventually. A drive train issue is concerning, but I think the Tesla engineers will figure it out to produce future models from suffering that issue, if it's a common issue.
First, in general, the inherent reliability and long life of electric drive trains is obvious and logical... one moving part, a rotor, in an electric AC motor vs. more than 100 parts, many of them moving, some of them reciprocating, in an ICE motor. One gear in the EV transmission vs. how many in an ICE automatic transmission? And in practice there are working electric motors in use all over the world that are more than 100 years old still powering street cars and mountain railroads and aerial trams, with even DC motors that use commutator brushes requiring minimal maintenance compared to fuel burners.
Second, in this specific case, it's a brand new car design, based on nothing earlier, subject to the usual entirely new car design shakeouts magnified by the intense media and internet attention this revolutionary car is getting. But the real news to me... seeing the glass differently... is that 1. the warranty is so good that problems are simply getting fixed without charge, sometimes proactively, before the customer even knows there is a problem. And they've retroactively ADDED several things to what their warranty covers, based on user experience. Who else does that? 2. Replacing the entire drivetrain is simple enough that it can be done overnight.
And most significantly to me, the overall customer satisfaction rating is quite high, more than a year into the program. My buddy in the Silicon Valley who has a half dozen neighbors who own Tesla S cars says they all still own them, all still love them, and now a co-worker has one too. Resale values are high too, and are guaranteed if you use their financing. Who else does that?
Is everybody happy with everything? No, of course not. It's just a fact of human nature that some people are never happy, and some always find something to complain about and focus on it, and there absolutely have been several reported issues that have been difficult for Tesla to resolve. But on average, customer satisfaction is very high. Why do you suppose some non-owners are so eager to knock it?
I wouldn't give Tesla too much credit for the retro active warranty coverage items. Yes, they are doing good things, but they have to be perfect, and they know that, because ANY criticism lands them in the news. So they are probably replacing things that may not need to be replaced, especially on an Edmunds or Motor Trend vehicle, just to make sure there's no issues.
Acura NSX just burned up on the test track. Completely toasted. Yet, media coverage of that is essentially nil.
I think you should have posted this in Tesla thread. It matches the general direction of that conversation.
I am curious, how much longer Musk can keep pumping this project with his personal money and loans? Esp now that he's planning a space flight, or something? Is the world really so much susceptible to BIG BS to keep funding it?
I imagine that if you're borrowing from friends with deep pockets after a divorce, you can't do it for very much longer.
I imagine that if you're borrowing from friends with deep pockets after a divorce, you can't do it for very much longer.
That's old news, and what Musk been accomplishing since those days is unprecedented. He's got a highly rated product that customers love and wait in line to buy. The company is making money and stock price is up. And come on, the early repayment of their DOE loan was nothing short of spectacular.
Quote:
PT Barnum already covered your last question.
Haters gotta hate, I guess... but I particularly liked this part of that same Mother Jones article. It's not a shuck, like PT Barnum was known for, Musk is actually delivering the goods.
Quote:
Every bit as practical as a Volvo (rear-facing trundle seat!) and sexier than an Aston Martin, the Model S isn't just the world's greatest electric car—it's arguably the world's greatest car, period. The curmudgeons at Consumer Reports call the seven-seater the best vehicle they've ever tested, and that's after docking it considerable points for only—only!—being able to travel 265 miles on a charge. The first mass-market electric car designed from scratch, it sports huge trunks in the rear and under the hood, an incredibly low center of gravity, and the ability to hit 60 mph in 4.2 seconds. Plus you can recharge it for the price of a burrito. Named car of the year by Motor Trend, the Model S has recharged Tesla as well.
In May, the company announced that it had repaid, nine years early, a $465 million loan it had received from the Department of Energy.
More dealers association propaganda, and nothing new. The Tesla stock keeps rising, and Space X is kicking azz. Good luck in your losing smear campaign.
More dealers association propaganda, and nothing new. The Tesla stock keeps rising, and Space X is kicking azz. Good luck in your losing smear campaign.
I was wondering, how is it possible to do these repairs with the dealer franchise network? I would have thought there would be Teslas piling up on the side of the road without any possibility of service.
On the other hand, it does sound like buying new and only keeping a Tesla while it is under warranty is not a bad idea.
I was wondering, how is it possible to do these repairs with the dealer franchise network? I would have thought there would be Teslas piling up on the side of the road without any possibility of service.
On the other hand, it does sound like buying new and only keeping a Tesla while it is under warranty is not a bad idea.
At least until they get another generation or two on the market to iron things out. The good news is that Tesla is competing in a high end market where even the Germans are known for poor reliability and expensive headaches. After my experience with a used low mileage 5 series I would not want to own a luxury car outside of Lexus/Acura that isn't under warranty and those two options are a bit on the boring side.
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